Can digital learning build more than knowledge and help people build skills?
In this episode, I'm joined by Georgie Cooke, Director at learning design agency, Lima Delta. Listen for a host of practical insights to help you design learning to build skills, including on:
And more!
Can digital learning build more than knowledge and help people build skills?
In this episode, I'm joined by Georgie Cooke, Director at learning design agency, Lima Delta. Listen for a host of practical insights to help you design learning to build skills, including on:
And more!
Welcome to mine, the skills gap, where we explore the barriers to skills transfer and how you can overcome them. Flavored with a sprinkle of neuroscience. In this episode, Georgie Cook from Delta Lima, and I explore the idea that maybe you can never become an expert and why she believes that science not sorcery is the route to great learning journeys. I'm Stella Collins, an evangelist for the Neuroscience of Learning, and co-founder and chief learning officer at Stellar Labs Watch Out Skills Gap. We're coming for you Today. I am talking to Georgie Cook who says she loves helping people learn new skills, to adopt new habits and see new perspectives. Growth, development and learning are her jam. She's director and learning experience consultant at Lima Delta, who are a digital agency in the UK for forward-thinking l and d teams. And they design game-changing digital learning, using behavioral insights to skip the guesswork and solve challenges with creativity and purpose. Welcome, Georgie. It's really great to have you here today and I'm delighted that, you know, we're gonna have this conversation about skills, about learning, and hopefully we'll get a little bit of the, some of the, uh, the sites and evidence in there too.
Speaker 2:Hi Stella. Love really looking forward to this conversation. Yes.
Speaker 1:So, um, first of all, let's find out what gets you, you know, what gets you excited and gets you out of bed in the morning around your job.
Speaker 2:I think there are two main parts of it for me. I said you, you summarizing that intro there that I really love helping people develop new habits and new perspectives. And there I'm really talking about the end learners that we are designing for. So I love knowing that the work that we do at Lima Delta is ultimately helping people to improve in their jobs, see new perspectives, be more open-minded and developed themselves in a work context. So I love knowing that we are contributing to individuals development. Um, and the other thing that gets me out of bed is hopefully contributing to changing some of the perception around digital learning within the workplace. So a lot of people, I think when there's some new digital learning available for them, their first thought isn't always, I can't wait, it might be something different to that. Um, and I, you know, Lima del is really wants to be part of changing that and really demonstrating that digital learning can be useful and valuable and are really, you know, actually a part of what organizations use to retain employees when it's done really well. So yeah, contributing to those two sort of bigger purposes is what really gets me out of bed.
Speaker 1:I really like the idea rivian revolutionizing kind of digital learning. Cuz I think many people go, oh, e-learning
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yes. And it, you know, know it takes, takes a a long time to change those perspectives, but I think every time that you go into something expecting it to be not great and you're pleasantly surprised, you know, that's, that's a step in the right direction.
Speaker 1:That's a great, a great place to be, isn't it? Yes. Um, okay, so, um, you are in, you are in the uk I'm here in Europe. Are you aware that, um, 2023 in Europe is gonna be the year of skills? And for us at Stellar Labs, this is a real kind of focus for us, this idea that, you know, practical skills that people really need to, to do their jobs, um, in the workplace, you know, and to do their jobs outside of the workplace too. Um, what are you finding at Lima Delta? Is skills a big focus for you too?
Speaker 2:I've definitely seen more and more of a focus on skills, particularly that our clients are bringing to us. Um, and just a lot of focus in the industry as well. Just thinking about what we see on LinkedIn articles that prominent people are writing, there's definitely seeing a big focus on skills, the skills gap. How do we make sure that new people entering the workforce have the right skills? How do we help people gain kind of continually develop skills they need as their jobs change at quite a fast pace? So definitely seeing a lot of, uh, talk about it in the industry, but specifically at Lima Delta, we are having more and more clients come to us saying that the problem they're trying to solve is a skills-based problem. Um, or what they, the impact they're looking for is skill improvement. Whereas previously skills were something that we were probably talking about with our clients and showing them how important skills were alongside knowledge, and we were the ones really driving, you know, the knowledge needs to be applied and that requires skill. Um, so I think previously I felt like we were really driving that conversation. Now I think both parties are seeing that focus on skills and making it a priority, um, which is great for us and I think leads to better solutions all around.
Speaker 1:I'm, I'm actually seeing Sumit quite interesting that clients are kind of coming, asking about skills, but once you start talking to them about, you know, what are they trying to do? How are they trying to do it? What are they currently doing? They slip back into knowledge. Mm. They slip back very much into talking about, oh, well we, we've got, you know, we've got this content here and this content there. And quite often I say to'em, but what do you want people to actually be able to do? And can they do that from that information you're giving them? And sometimes they look a little bit nervous, like as if you know, oh, well yeah, we're not really talking about skills yet. Oh, we we're still, we're still focusing on, on sharing content, knowledge acquisition. Even when they talk about learning, sometimes what they mean is content.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes there's an assumption that if you help people build their knowledge, the skills will just come. Um, was I think, I think the reality is that skill development is a long road. It's a long road to mastery of skills, isn't it? Yeah. And actually it doesn't happen just overnight and it certainly doesn't happen by itself. Um, so yeah, I think it's about busting that assumption that if people know enough they will be able to do. Um, yeah. And I think we need to be more proactive in that. How do you handle that if when clients come to you and actually, like you said, they're actually, they're still talking a lot about content. How do you guide that conversation with them?
Speaker 1:I quite often start off by asking them something they've learned themselves. So it could be, you know, they've learned to play an instrument or they've learned a sport or, um, you know, they've learned to be an expert in whatever they are. Hmm. And ask them, you know, how much of the, how much of that they do by, you know, watching a video, doing some e-learning, um, even even going on a course, you know, they recognized very quickly that they didn't learn it like that they had, as you say, had to take place over time. They had to practice regularly, they had to practice, um, you know, in many different contexts. So having that kind of varied practice was really important. Getting feedback, we call it feed forward from other people so that, you know, whether you're, you know, you're going down the right r right track and a huge amount of kind of reflection. You know, people when they're playing Lish, play an instrument or playing a sport, they spend a lot of time either listening to themselves or watching themselves and actually really reflecting on, you know, how well do I do that? What do I need to do better? How do I make that easier? So quite often I try and relate it to something where they've, they really have learned a skill without thinking about it as a skill necessarily. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then start thinking about, so how does that work in the workplace? What do you need people to be able to do if they're a, you know, if they need to be able to code better or, or you know, even if it's a, a kind of, um, a psychological skill. So, you know, um, show, show that they are behaving in a psychologically safe manner. Mm-hmm. Or improve their communication skills. It's, it's all talking about as it's a skill that needs to be built through time, practice, experience, feedback.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think one of the challenges that sometimes comes up, cause I will have very similar conversations with our clients, is that a lot of the examples you gave there are self-directed, aren't they? They're self-led, especially things like continued practice and reflection and taking on board feedback and choosing to implement it. You know, that's not something that a piece of digital training can make you do. It's not something you can sit down for for 20 minutes and tick off and it's done. So I think a lot of our conversations are around how do we support people to do the self-directed pieces as well as the pieces that we can really guide them through. And which, which bits of that overall path to skill building, which bits can we create? How can we create environments for them to practice in? What can we simulate? How can we give them structured feedback to improve? And then actually at what point do they need to take responsibility for furthering their own skills in their own way? Um, so I think it's always a really interesting conversation around that whole holistic blend, uh, of things that contribute to building skills.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited for what you're saying there, Georgie, because we're actually building a platform right now that we are, um, extending that skills journey into the workplace mm-hmm. So that we are actually supporting them to continue to be nudged. So they're becoming to do it in a self-directed way, but they're just reminded, they're nudged, they're prompted, they're given some aids, they're given some guidance to actually take that into the workplace to stretch that learning so that it is, does take place over time. So we, you know, we try and stretch out to sort of three or six months with support also bringing in the help of, you know, we know it's really important to have somebody to support you in that, usually a manager or a supervisor. But what our we're doing with our platform is actually including them as well. So a person kind of nominates somebody, you know, I want this person to validate my skills in the workplace, give me feedback. So we're, we're, we're actually building a platform to do that. So<laugh>
Speaker 2:That's so
Speaker 1:Exciting. Yeah. That'd be here an exciting further conversation at some point. I think
Speaker 2:Definitely
Speaker 1:Please excuse this interruption. At Stellar Labs, we help you build business critical skills, not just knowledge. Add the missing pieces to your learning journeys to take people from knowing to doing, want to know how? Visit Stella labs.eu to learn more. Now, back to the episode. Do you think, um, design and delivery needs to be different? If you are, you know, if you're training knowledge or if you're training skills or, or do you never train knowledge? Do you always train skills?
Speaker 2:I'd say it's rare that we would exclusively design for knowledge. There's almost always an element of skill in there, but I do think when the focus is really on skills and when everybody in the project is aligned, that skills is the main focus, I think it does change how we design and what the solution is. Um, partly to, to design for what we were just talking about. Saying that it's not, it's not gonna be a one hit wonder. This is going to be gradual over time. So simple things like, you know, we're unlikely to be creating one digital solution, we're going to be creating lots of different ones, um, that all play different roles and would be delivered over time. But I think the main, I guess the main thing when we are designing for skills is what we're really trying to do is simulate environments and create really realistic opportunities for practice and feedback. And if we were doing exclusively knowledge, there might be less of that. Um, one project that comes to mind is one we did recently for, um, a bank that was all about training, helping train their staff who looked after high net worth customers and various skills they need to do their job really well. And there were five core skills we were focusing on and it was incredibly skill focused. It was really how do we develop their capability in these specific areas. It wasn't actually anything to do with what knowledge do they need. We are assuming they've got that it's all about the skills. And so there, our design process was much more about what's their job really look like day to day and what's the difference between when somebody is kind of executing those skills at an average level versus at an exceptional level. What difference does that make and how can we simulate those real environments capturing the real challenges that people face? The real complexity of those environments, the fact that those skills actually all interlink. You are never just executing one skill, you are doing multiple at the same time. So our design process, when we're thinking about skills, takes all of that into consideration and we are really thinking about how do we simulate all of that and how do we give meaningful experiences and feedback in a digital way.
Speaker 1:I think that contextual, relevant, meaningful, connected, um, way of looking at it is really important. We had Miriam Neland on the podcast just a while ago and you know, she's a real specialist in sort of evidence-based learning and really thinking about, you know, how do you go from being, you know, a novice, a new, you know, somebody who new to a skill up to that level of, you know, where you've really mastered it. It's just become part of, almost part of who you are, but actually that also you really need to think about where people are as to how you design for them because there's a difference in what they they need.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And it is such a journey, isn't it, you know, from novice all the way up to master at something that's a really big continuum and something I think about a lot. And I wonder what you think about this is the role that confidence plays on that journey as well. Cuz I think one of the differences between knowledge and skills is with knowledge often it's quite clear what you are aiming for. It's, it's not black and white, but it's more black and white. You kind of, there is a correct way of doing something or there's information you need to know and understand, but with skills there's a lot more complexity and nuance. You and I could both be experts in the same skill but still approach it in different ways to each other. And I think that it's a bit less tangible. And I think that can sometimes from the learner's point of view, make them potentially feel a bit more vulnerable in that situation. You know, how do I know if I'm doing it right? And you know, we all mess up sometimes and if you, I dunno, say we're trying to build a skill in communication or influencing or something like that. Yeah, maybe you have a conversation that just goes really badly<laugh> and you come away from it thinking that that was a car crash, that was terrible. That can really knock your confidence, I think, in that skill. And I think that is something we have to design for. Where are people at, where are their starting points and how do we account for the fact that it's not necessarily a linear journey of just progression, progression, progression, getting better. Um, so it's in, in the solution I was talking about earlier, we would, we created lots of different simulations that took into account different contexts and environments and also were at slightly different levels. So you could build up in the complexity and the difficulty of it, but I wondered what you thought about that point about confidence and like what's going on in our brains with that<laugh>?
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. We were actually having this conversation only the other day. Oh really? Um, about confidence, because one of the things we measure is, you know, how confident do people feel as they start, as they go through a learning journey. And at different points in the journey when they get to the end of a, you know, a journey with us doesn't mean they necessarily master the skill. And I actually think you can probably never fully master a skill. There's always more you can learn, but that's another story. Um, but we were talking about quite often when you're new to something, you might actually feel quite confident because you don't know what you don't know. So you might think, oh actually I'm quite good at, in fact, we were, yeah, we were talking about specific client the other day who, um, were teaching them how to kind of use psychological safety in the concept of psychological safety in the workplace and create a psychologically safe environment through things like, you know, open questions, listening, well not, not shouting when somebody gives you an answer you don't like the sound of, you know, quite simple stuff. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, but they started off the journey saying, oh yeah, yeah, we know, you know, we know all about psychological safety, which meant they did, they knew about it, but it didn't mean they were implementing it. So they started off quite confident and as we kind of went, as they went through the journey, their, their confidence levels actually went down because they began to realize that, oh, okay, yeah, maybe we know stuff, but we're not doing it. We're not quite sure how to do what it is we need to do. So I think that confidence thing's really interesting and it can go up and down as you go on a journey because there's something new is revealed to you, whether it's new knowledge or a new way of doing something, you can think, I, I, I, I didn't, I didn't have that before. This is new and, and am I going to be able to do it? And I think if you can build their confidence to sort of say, you will, you will be able to do this. You know, it's, it's just another, and I think that's about making it steps on a journey, isn't it? That you take people, you help'em recognize the progress they've made and if you recognize you've made progress, then you have at least the confidence that I can make progress. And I think having that understanding that that kind of inner, inner kind of belief that I can learn, I can make progress. I may make slow progress and some things faster progress than others. I think that can really help to build confidence.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's making me think of, you know, the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset where building that belief that you can improve and will improve over time, even despite setbacks that setbacks a setback doesn't mean I will never be able to do this. It means I've learned, I've got some data there on what not to do, what to try differently next time and I can still improve. Um, I had a really interesting conversation with a client, this is on a different project, um, from about a year ago. This was for a, the, the skills we were trying to build were all about sales conversations. Um, and it was interesting because it was four new joiners into this organization and a big part of what we did for this solution was interviewed quite a lot of experienced people. We did it for a few reasons, partly because we really wanted those experienced people to give their tips and to actually demonstrate how they do sales calls so that new people can look at it and actually have in mind, I understand what I'm aiming for, I understand what good looks like. Yeah. But what we also asked all those experienced people was to tell us all their stories of the sales calls that have not gone well. Um, you know, some of them were some really funny stories. Some of them were ones that you think, oh, so cringey. Um, and what we did is we collected those stories and almost created a bit of a blooper reel of mm-hmm.<affirmative>, all these really experienced people talking about when it hasn't gone right. And the i, what we were trying to do with that was to show the people who were at the beginning of the journey that actually even the people who are much more experienced have been on a road that doesn't look like a straight line. Yeah. And they have come back from, you know, moments where it really wasn't going well and almost trying to, trying to build that growth mindset and show that it doesn't have to be the end of the world. It can actually be quite lighthearted. We can have a laugh at some of these calls that didn't go well, we can brush off when someone hangs up on us. And actually that mindset is sort of required in order to be able to really build the skill over time. So it made me think of that when you were talking about
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's not really the confidence of can I do this skill? It's the confidence in I can learn, you know, and I can always learn. And I think that what I, what I was referring to in the mastery is, you know, it doesn't matter how good you are at something, there's always going to be either, either change will happen, so you still have to adapt your behaviors, your thinking patterns, or just the way you do things because, you know, change happens. The way we access information now is completely different to how we, you know, used to go down the library and get a book. Mm. Now you just Google things, um, you know, the way we have conversations, you know, previously we had conversations by having face-to-face conversations, but we've all become much more adept at having conversations and, and building relationships and rapport. Mm. Through, you know, through video calls. Um, a lot of the skills are similar, but actually you do have to have some slightly different ways of doing things when you're doing that. So I think that whole idea that you, you will ever master anything is, is almost the wrong idea. You can get better and you can improve, but you're always gonna need to be open to to further improvement. And I, we've been talking about the kind of the unconscious competence cycle quite a lot recently. Yes. The idea that, you know, as you move along, you are always being, as long as you have an open and curious mind, you're always going to be exposed to, ah, there's new ways of doing that that i, I didn't know about, so I can try them. So it's yes. Yeah, I think keeping that curiosity and open mind is also hugely important to feeling confident.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I was thinking, actually, this is in a very different context, but I was thinking about athletes and sports stars and you know, somebody, like people in the England football team for example, there's no arguing that they are incredibly skilled at what they do. Probably, you know, top tiny percent of people in the world, their football skills are there, but they still miss penalties or they still fluff up a shot every now and then. And I think that's interesting, isn't it? There's, I think that shows again that skills never exist in isolation. You know, those footballers could in training in a calm environment, when they can take their time, they can execute that penalty a hundred times out of a hundred. But actually in their real world, when that pressure is on, when the crowd is there, when the weight of a country watching you is on your shoulders,<laugh>, that's actually a lot more complex than that. And I think the same is true probably with slightly less pressure in our workplace scenarios where we can help people build skills in a safe space. But also we have to try and include complex, difficult spaces for them to practice in as well, because that's where the real, otherwise I think we're not gonna get that transfer. I could be, I could be great in a simple simulation where I'm just focusing on one skill, but then when I'm on a call with trying to have a really difficult conversation and influence a stakeholder and there's actually a lot more going on. There's politics, there's personality, there's emotion, the
Speaker 1:Cats, the dog or the kids come in and out.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's a lot more difficult than you're hungry. Yes.<laugh> don't wanna do anything when I'm hungry. Um, yeah. I think it's about if, if we want people's skills to transfer into the real world, we have to try and simulate as much of the complexity of the real world as possible in their learning environment so that it's not a huge shock to the system and they feel like they're starting again. Yeah. When they get to the real world, I
Speaker 1:Think that's enormously important and it's, it's probably almost impossible to do because you know, you know, you're in a safe environment, which is why it's so important to kind of support people when they are in the workplace. And, you know, diff conversations is, is one of the kind of common, I'm sure you've been asked to, to run programs on that too. It's kinda like quite a common thing in all sorts of programs. You know, how do I have that conversation? And you can teach people all the skills, they can practice it as many times as they want, they can practice it at home with their family, but the day that you're actually about to, you know, have a conversation and your heart's beating really fast and you, you struggle, you know, maybe you didn't have a good night's sleep the night before because you were worrying about it,<laugh>, that becomes a much more challenging activity to do and that's where you really need to have, you know, not the skill of necessarily having the conversation, but maybe just the skill of focusing yourself and grounding yourself in that moment that may not have been taught as part of that difficult conversation piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very interesting and very true. It's so holistic, isn't it? Yes. And yeah. And I suppose there that's about how do we make sure that our blended solutions take into account what happens on the job as well? So I think that's where things like coaching, mentoring, um, come into play or having that trusted person, whether it's your manager or a peer that you can debrief with. Yeah. Or what kind of reflection tools, maybe digital reflection tools can we provide so that when you come off that first conversation, you take five minutes and say, okay, how did I feel about that? What went well? What am I gonna try next time? So it's how can our solutions support people in the real world as well as when they are practicing and preparing?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think the reflection piece is, is hugely important and probably a little undervalued. And when it comes to the time we have to reflect, you know, often we're not given that time. You know, it's, it's when you're at work, it's fine to be doing things, but it's not considered the right thing to be sitting kind of looking, gazing, which you probably need to do if you're reflecting, well maybe not sitting, maybe going for a walk and actually really thinking through what happened and how do I feel about that and what could I have done differently. And it's kind of IP picking it, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does take a bit more deep thought, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, indeed. Yeah. So one of the things I know you say, um, in, in, uh, Delta Lima is, you know, you like science not sorcery. And I just think that's a lovely way of, of describing it. So how, how are you using the science in in what you do and how did you come to sort of be interested in the science of learning or science generally?
Speaker 2:Yeah, very interested in the, I guess evidence based and research-based learnings that we can apply to learning. That's a bit meta, isn't it? Um, and I've been really interested in that because I have worked in the learning industry for my whole career. So from a graduate scheme that I joined in a big agency, they've then had lots of different roles within the industry, but I've always worked within learning. And I think the longer the, the more time I spent in the industry, the more I started to question, um, what I didn't know. Maybe this is coming back to the conscious incompetence you, you know, the more you know, the more that you know that you know and the more that you realize that you don't know. And I think I realized that I had a lot of questions in my early career about why are we doing it this way? Why, why are things structured this way? Why do we, why, why are summaries important? Why are we building things gradually in this way? And I think a lot of time I struggle to find answers to those questions. It was a case of this is how it's always been done. And you know, some of those things that we do, the way they've always been done work and some of them I think could be improved. And so when, um, starting Lima Delta, we really wanted to have confidence that what we were designing was based on research. And of course you can never say this solution is absolutely going to work a hundred percent of the time for a hundred percent of people because of this piece of research that was done. There's a huge amount we still don't know. But I think there is actually a lot of research and evidence out there just in terms of how humans operate and work and what we respond to, um, what influences us, um, what influences our memory, how do we get things to stick in our minds and it's those kind of things that we want, we apply in our solutions, um, so that we are not just saying, oh, we think this is a nice idea. We're saying we think this is a nice idea for your people because these findings from these pieces of research suggest that this is gonna work for these reasons. So that's how, that's how we use it there.
Speaker 1:I think it's really interesting when you've got sort of a, a science and a, a kind of evidence-based process behind what you do. It also becomes much easier to unpick it, you know, a to improve it, to keep improving, continually improve. Yes. But also if something goes wrong, it's much easier to kind of look at the pieces or the, the process and kind of say, I can see that, you know, we skipped a step or we just didn't do a step quite as well as we would normally do it. Or there was something in that context that was completely different to everything else we've ever done. So we should have thought of something slightly different there. So I think it also helps you analyze and improve what you do for the future as well as making it effective in in the time.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And I think one thing that we're always thinking about is even though there's research out there that suggests, let's take an example, something like social proof as a concept, there's lots of research and findings that shows that as humans we are influenced by people like us or people that we aspire to be. So we might say from that, okay, based on that, instead of just having a piece of digital learning where basically the computer is talking to you, telling you what you should or shouldn't do, we're actually going to use respected voices and people from within the organization to deliver some of these key messages. That's might be an example of how you try and leverage something like social proof that's not gonna, we still can't say that that's going to work the exact same way in all different organizations because it will be impacted by that organization's culture, those specific people and the relationships between them. There are so many other factors going on. So it's, for us it's always about what can we, we learn from the evidence and the research that's been done and then crucially how do we blend that with the reality of every specific organization that we are dealing with. And like you say, sometimes you learn some of that stuff later and it's a learning for the next time and it's always about improving it, but knowing what you were trying to achieve and the principle you were basing it on definitely helps structure a design and help you unpick it and improve it later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Totally agree. Um, I can see where we're kind of coming to the end of our journey and I could, I could imagine we could go on talking about this forever and ever and ever, but um, I
Speaker 2:Agree
Speaker 1:<laugh> we'll have another one a little bit later. I think what I'd really like to, um, to get from you just at the end of this conversation is, you know, what advice would you give to anybody who's really thinking about beating the skills gap?
Speaker 2:Great question. I think I would say firstly, get really clear on where you are now and where you want to be to the point that you could demonstrate that difference. Or maybe you can show this is somebody in our organization who is at the skill level that we would love everybody to be at so that you know exactly what you are aiming for and work back from that to unpick the skills that that requires. I think that the first thing is about being really clear on what the skills are you are really trying to develop. And then I think my top line piece of advice would be simulate, simulate, simulate. I think it's very difficult to just explain to people how to do a skill. It's very difficult for people to imagine what that looks like and what they're trying to do. So I think the more practical you can make it, the more you can show what good looks like and then give people opportunities to practice it in environments that are as complex as you can make them and as real to their day-to-day as you can make them, the better.
Speaker 1:That's really great advice. Georgie, I have really enjoyed this conversation and I can really imagine that we've got, you know, lots more conversations to be having in the future. Thank you so much for joining me today and um, I really look forward to having another conversation very soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it. We'll speak soon.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind the Skills Gap. If you liked it, hit subscribe. You can follow me, stellar Collins on LinkedIn and find out more about how Stellar Labs is tackling the skills gap@stellarlabs.eu.