Feedback or feedforward, empowerment or control, focus on skills or outcomes? All questions that Bruce Fechyr-Lippens, founder at Huapii, addresses in this podcast about shifts the C-suite need to make to futureproof their organisations.
Feedback or feedforward, empowerment or control, focus on skills or outcomes? All questions that Bruce Fechyr-Lippens, founder at Huapii, addresses in this podcast about shifts the C-suite need to make to futureproof their organisations.
Welcome to the Stella labs podcast, future learning today at Stella labs, our mission is to bust the technology skills crunch with effective, measurable, engaging training. We consult on design and deliver the technical and people skills and competencies you need in business. In these podcasts, you'll hear from industry experts and practitioners from the worlds of technology and training. They'll share their experience, insights and inspiration and their visions for the future. With you, keep listening to start your future learning here today. Hello and welcome back to the Stella labs podcast. I'm stellar Collins, chief learning officer at Stella labs. And I'm delighted today to be talking to Bruce Fetcher. Lipins founder of WAPI YPO has the most fantastic talent experience platform that really helps to accelerate and push performance in organizations. And what we love about it at Stella labs is that it's really people-centered as opposed to organizational work centered. So welcome, Bruce. It's really lovely to have you here today.
Speaker 2:Thank you Stella for these nice words. I'm looking forward to good exchange with you.
Speaker 1:I think we always have good conversations with Bruce, so Bruce, it'd be really good. Um, to, if you can just tell us a little bit more about your, you know, really interesting experience that you've had in, in sort of the, particularly the HR sector, I think, and how that perhaps connects a little bit with our, with our L and D sector. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, it's interesting. My[inaudible] experience started about 10 years ago. Um, I was at McKinsey as a generalist, uh, consultants, uh, ready to actually move to New York with my wife. I followed her she's in the urban designer architect, uh, moved to with her, uh, started again, working there at my first moment of I do. I really like in life, what am I actually really doing at this moment of like, Hmm. And, um, for me in the end of the day, I realized it's all about helping people to unleash their full potential. And of course it has a people aspect has an HR aspect. And that's how I first, as a consultant, got to know HR, how do you bring more agility in HR? How do you do talent development, how you build high-performing teams facilitating that that led me to working at three years at Solvay the chemical global chemical company, uh, as part of the HR leadership team and, uh, and also 13 months at Euroclear, uh, as chief talent officer what's in a name, uh, but very much related to a lot of those topics. Uh, and then, uh, in the last years, of course, uh, as one of the co-founders of, uh, wipey, um, where in the end of the day, we're all about, uh, helping to future-proof organizations and helping the HR colleagues.
Speaker 1:And I think that that ties so nicely in with what we're doing at Stella labs and, you know, we are kind of looking for opportunities to partner and collaborate together. So I think it's, you know, I think there's people centered performance centered approach that we all have, but around how do we make people feel happier, more effective. And, and as you talk about in a really future-proof them, because, you know, change is happening, people are going through and experiencing so many different things right now. And I think if we can support them in work to feel better, to perform better to, you know, that that whole performance thing helps you feel like a more fulfilled person. I think
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more. It's, uh, it's intrinsic motivation, uh, Daniel pink, of course we all know him, intrinsic motivation. One of the elements is that you need to feel that you're progressing somehow that you're learning somehow. I think that's, for me, it's what you say about the performance part of it is we want to feel we're progressing and learning is it is a key element of that. Um, if I confess to myself now that I think about it, um, when I made the move to leave in a way that corporate world at Euroclear, and really moved to be a hundred percent a part of the, the WAPI, uh, startup, uh, it opened up again fully my mind. I felt that in the last years, I was probably a little bit less curious or were so much dragged into the operational work that had, I took less the time to read again and now, uh, I create more time to read, to learn, and it's an enormous, uh, feeling of, of reward of creativity. And I do hope, or I do think it can. It also helps on the performance aspect, um, instilling this in the minds of our people in your organizations as a system, I think is a, is a wonderful opportunity we have. And I say as a system, because now I have seen it a lot. It's dependent on the drive, the inner drive of a person, which obviously is the most important, uh, drive. But if you can do it as a system, uh, incentivize it, nudge people, uh, facilitate it as a system, as an organization. Well, then I think we, we would be better off for everyone, uh, for the person, of course, in the first place.
Speaker 1:So that's really lovely. And I love your, your sort of conversation about you since you've moved from a bigger organization, you've felt you've had more opportunity to explore. You've got your curiosity back. Do you think that's something that is, is harder to do in a bigger organization to work with your curiosity?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if it's really related to, as a big organization or not. It's probably, I'm really honest, related to making a dressing job shift and then taking ownership again. However, in the big organization, sometimes you're very long in the same position and you're naturally a bit less challenged you feel in the comfort zone and if you're more in a comfort zone and there is a lot of operational work, then you sometimes forget the habits of learning. And so I think it's more related to that piece. And so probably, yeah, of course, when you start a new job, you're a bit more independent. You feel it more yeah. Uh, from within, so you have to take much more action from it. But in the first 10 years, uh, when I was also at the organizations, uh, the curiosity was more there than in the last years. Uh, and you know, I was part of McKinsey. You can say a lot of good and bad about it, about, about McKinsey, but there was a culture of continuous learning. And if you did not learn, uh, then, then it doesn't work anymore. So it was embedded in it. And honestly, I like it. And a lot of people liked it very, very much, uh, yes, and are actually really high performing and happy people.
Speaker 1:And, and so you've already talked about perhaps there's some challenges for these CEOs, perhaps they've been there a long time, perhaps they're beginning to feel a little bit tired. Are there any other particular challenges you can see to sort of, to the city in their team, um, and organizations in, in the near future, but also perhaps in the slightly longer, longer view?
Speaker 2:A few of, you know, I had, I had lots of conversations with senior teams in the last couple of months had to look, um, I think hundreds, if I, if I boil it down to a hundred conversations, 90 of them really realize that traditional ways of working are not fully unleashing the full potential of people and that we touch about learning of course, 90, uh, understand it. That's good. 25 really dare to take action. Yeah. So for me, one of the fundamental challenges is why didn't we dare to do things differently. Yeah. Go a bit away of those traditional ways of doing work of doing learning, of going to classrooms. Now let's make it more experiential. Uh, let's really, uh, do it differently. I think that's one of the challenges to overcome, take actions to do it differently. And then secondly, of course, uh, more on a generic trends. It is a fact and research is saying, stating that many, uh, many people need to be up-skilled or re-skill. And 50% of them, I always felt a bit tension with that effect. And I figured out a couple of weeks, why, because I find it quite, I find it quite of a top-down and Petro journalistic way of saying like, we need to, re-skill 50% of our workforce. It's a really interesting the words, but, you know, w why did we come ever to that point, maybe because we didn't really empower our people. Uh, anyway, our, and I shouldn't say our people, maybe because we didn't empower enough people, maybe because we didn't have the system in place that organically people, uh, learn new skills, and then the upskilling goes much more organic, uh, than today. Certainly there's a problem with the worst case, you need to lay off people and you rehire new skills, that's a pity. Uh, these are things that, that I think can really be a void avoid it. And so that's, that's really one of the challenges that in organizations that's shifted very quickly, let's, you know, let's go for a more empowered, organic way of learning and certainly do differently, more experiential. Uh,
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're absolutely all singing from my hymnbook there, Bruce. And I think what you've said, there is really interesting in terms of what you're talking about really is increasing the intrinsic motivation of, uh, of the people in the org of everybody, you know, from bottom up top down, increasing their intrinsic motivation, to want to learn new things, to identify what are the challenges, you know, we often say, so what, what challenges do the CEOs have, but actually, perhaps we should be saying, you know, throughout the business, you know, what challenges do you have? Uh, how do you see yourself resolving those challenges? Yeah.
Speaker 2:We all have challenges. It's the way we deal with them. And it's the way we resolve them, uh, and try to think a bit differently. Yeah. Um, I mean, the book you wrote for me was a source of inspiration to make everything as experiential as possible. Um, a few years ago, I came up with that concept as a Belge to taste the chocolate, which in a way, give the chocolate, that's not dot theory. It's the same with learning. I think you, instead of laps are, are creating that, but even one or two steps further than, than I was even thinking about it. So it gives amazing ideas to do, even though just learning it's even when you have conversations with people, let them taste what you really need. Let's go away from the theory. I think leaders business can do that much more for themselves with also when they are in interaction with employees, customers, um, and, and, and everybody with stakeholders, I think that's the way we really do deal with it. And it's the way we, um, uh, the other book I'm reading now is rethinking from Adam Grant, uh, which is also put on my list. Yeah, it's quite fascinating. And he's a very intriguing, uh, professor in the, in the, in the United States, uh, young, but already wrote three books. Um, anyway, his concept is all about, uh, sometimes you need to earn, learn things, to learn something new and give space and capacity to do that. I think that is the essence to know what you don't know, uh, be curious and be open-minded. Uh, and it's not always easy to do to do that. Of course, I haven't been able to do that in the last 15 years that I'm working. I feel that again, a little bit now more, and it's incredibly energizing.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Interestingly, in terms of neuroscience, as I understand it, we actually unlearn what we have to do is learn new things that actually kind of slightly push out the old things. But apparently those old things are always waiting to kind of, you know, pop back. If you, if you let them they'll pop up again. So you apparently can't unlearn, but you can reinforce new behaviors, new habits, new thinking patterns. So that, that becomes your, your, your default in the, I think it's really interesting when people talk. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Talk about that. I read one of the indeed in one of the books of Stephen Poole monsters was there indeed again, you, you remind me of it because it's a, if I understand the dwell is you, you built the patterns and the bridges and the neurons, and by learning new things, these will pop up more than, uh, yeah. And that's why it probably takes 30 or a hundred days to create new habits, to learn new things that you need to do it over and over.
Speaker 1:You do, and you definitely can't learn new habits just by talking about it. You've obviously, you know, you've talked about experiential, you've talked about that kind of, for me, it's about how can we make a world more sensory, particularly as we're now working more digitally, how can we make that feel more real, more grounded in, in reality. And that's hard when it's digital.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And it's hard when a digital, because you need to feel, I think the somewhere in emotional connection with it, you need to, from deeper from it, then you need to really want to learn that. And then you need to feel and taste it experience because then you feel the emotion it gives on you and it's, and we go into the, the hormones, the positive hormones that it creates and which is, and the reinforcing loop.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday actually about how can you make digital learning more concrete, more real. And we talked about things like actually using physical objects, but we actually also talked about the language we use and how we can make that language more concrete, more, multi-sensory kind of using sensory metaphors. So rather than talking in kind of abstract speak, which is often what, you know, business language is, is quite abstract. It's not concrete. You can't get hold of it. And we were talking about how, if you can use language that is much more, um, yeah. Sensory based. So, you know, use, think, well, you talked about the taste of chocolate, you tasted chocolate as a, as a metaphor, but that immediately in our brains kind of stimulates those parts of our brains that are related to chocolate. And so we're actually getting a sensory, not as good as really tasting chocolate, but we're getting a sensory experience by just using those metaphors. So I think that's really interesting. Okay. And what do you think, what do you think going forward that, you know, the, the C-suite has to do? So you've talked about people perhaps giving, empowering people more from the bottom. What else do you think they need to do to kind of address these challenges we're facing?
Speaker 2:Um, we're all muddling themselves. I think the shifts, I always talk, it's a shift from within, so the first word is shifts, not just the change. I think shift is more positive than yet another change and the shifts can be a bit more drastic also. Uh, that's again, the ownership part. And then from within, uh, I think too often we say others need to change and we don't change. Uh, too often we say, we should learn this. You should do that. And then you don't apply to yourself. How can you inspire even just the people around you, if you don't shift from within first and therefore, how can you inspire your organization, your business, uh, if you don't shift from within first. And I think, uh, I think it starts from there
Speaker 1:And you talked earlier, um, and it resonated with me about, you know, your shift, your move to New York and how that really sort of helped you kind of re I don't know, almost like restructure your
Speaker 2:Mind. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and for me, you know, a couple of times in my life, we have moved countries, we have moved, you know, kind of totally uprooted and done something really different. And I think that not only does it help you rethink, but it also gives you new impetus because you're not just, you're not just doing the same old, boring, boring, boring stuff. Suddenly you might be doing the same stuff, but in an entirely different environment. So I'm wondering should all senior people be encouraged at some point in their careers to, you know, make a big shift of some sort, just to help them see, see the world and you, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a very interesting, intriguing question. I probably think if we would ask the, the people we know or the C suite people we know, like, what has been your turning points in your career? It was always probably triggered by a sort of shift. The shifts can be move shifts can be something really good or something really challenging that happens. Uh, but it's always triggered by a shift somehow of context, because then you are, you need to rethink and ultimately makes you strong and then you learn new things. The big question I have is, um, maybe if there's a question is, do we proactively need to create sometimes those shifts? Yeah. And I do think that sometimes it is needed to proactively do a shift. Um, the reason why I say that is I believe very much in the, um, uh, the recovery recovery, uh, rituals are important that we tend to, we tend to see, uh, sometimes sleep or other things as unproductive time. The end of the world is luckily changes. The luckily, luckily the world is changing on this, but 10 years ago, but still a lot of people say, Oh, no, or a break is unproductive. Time is big. And then you see life as a marathon. You never stop. You never stop. And then suddenly it break down. Uh, I think we need, we need to see the world as more sprint recovery, sprint recovery on a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly basis. But I do take, you need to also look at it from a holistic basis. Where do you create suddenly a little bit, your sprint recovery, and really do something differently and doing something differently. The nice part of it can perfectly be at the same organization. You don't need to suddenly change everything, but make it drastic shifts somewhere. And I otherwise you fall into the trap of too much comfort zone and the longer you're in there, the harder it is to make it.
Speaker 1:And I think the beauty of choosing your shift deliberately thinking, I need to shift something. You have some level of control over it, and it feels much more positive and constructive if you've got some level of control than if a shift happens, because something happens and you have no control, you'll learn from both. But I think that positive, you know, we're going to change this. We're going to do something different is, is really inspiring. And then I, well, for me, what it gave me was the ability to recognize that if I want to make a change, I can, whereas the change chaplains to you, you know, you can react to change, but can you actually create that change you want? And I think that would be great if all seek well, if everybody had that ability, that, that experience of knowing that you can make a change, you can get out of this place where you are, that you may be either too comfortable. You may be uncomfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. And it can, it can even start with small things because in the end of the day, doing your proactive shifts is it's a yeah, it's, it's, it's better. You decided yourself, you just need to create a daily habit to get there. And then we go again of the, having a curious and open mind in the book of Adam Grant. He, uh, there's this there's an interesting statistic. They looked at all the U S presidents. And what made the most, you know, high-performing presence. They had one threats in common is that they were very curious, open-minded ask questions and pretty much all took an hour per day to read something new, be creative. And in a way that's a habit for me to open your mind and open your minds to make somewhere shifts or do something different than just the traditional.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They even say doing simple things like, you know, walking a different route to work everyday or driving a different route to work every day. You know, I dunno getting out of bed. The other side is probably even, even a simple one because we are very creatures of habit. And so even that can help you to just be a bit more curious, notice the world a bit more differently. Notice the changes that are there.
Speaker 2:Indeed. I, um, uh, the look to work with, uh, a very nice Belgian family company, and we're, we're helping them on the, coming up with their purpose. Now it is already very purposeful company. They are 10 years in sustainability or real. It's not greenwashing. It's amazing what they do. Um, and, and I started first by doing, um, I call them mirror sessions. So we literally, with each of the 10 ex-co members, we go for three hours outside and we have a walk and we talk, what were your shifts from within who are you? But we do it by a doc by, and that's allowed now, even with COVID times, we have a walk outside, just the fact that you're walking outside. You're not always looking at each other eyes. You're not around the table. It's a completely different conversation. And you go to the roots and the hearts of each other. These are the most rewarding, fulfilling moments and moments of insights for both of us, for both of them.
Speaker 1:I think there's actually something very powerful and being next to somebody and having a conversation without looking at each other. But you're both kind of looking at the same, the same view. You're both sitting in the same way. And we tend to meetings to always, you know, put people face, uh, face to face opposing. But actually I think some meetings might be best if you just went for a walk absolutely together or sat on a bench next to each other and just kind of let the conversation flow. Yes. I think, I think there's some real things to do in terms of, you know, simple things to do in terms of helping management teams shift their conversations by shifting the way they meet. So, you know, for me conference table around board table at worst, a long board table is probably one of the least productive ways of having a conversation you can possibly have
Speaker 2:The us. My wife always loves whether that when we are with the two of us, uh, I always like to be an[inaudible] instead of a dataset. Nice. I don't know. It's she always loves to that. That's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep. I think you got a different perspective. Okay. So what else do we think, you know, the C-suite can do to help themselves, but you know, their people and ultimately the organization survive, no, sorry. More than survive, really thrive and grow and perform well.
Speaker 2:Um, so we spoke about really deep, empowering. We spoke about really the shift from within and role modeling. I would say probably the third one is making it a systemic, uh, in the organization. Now it's about embedding it in the processes. Um, this may sound a bit more boring in a way, but I think it is important. Yeah. And there are companies that are actually giving a bonus based on if you have grown and acquire new skills. Yeah. Okay. Instead of giving a bonus, purely on your KPI that you reached, I find it at least intriguing. Secondly, um, I think feedback, uh, having a feedback culture, we spoke about that, I believe in credibly, in the peer power of the power of feedback in a way I like more feet forward than feedback. Of course I use feedback because it's a general term, but yes, it's feeds forward. It's more in the coaching habit, but if you can create that habit in a company, it is so powerful. Yeah. Mentorship, uh, finding a mentor, having a good mentor that helps you. Uh, Oh my God. It's it's, it's unbelievably powerful. Yeah. Even when you do your objectives in a company, a lot of companies are doing objectives and the OKR way, objective key results way. That's good. That's powerful. It's aligned with the company objectives. It's okay. As long as you power your people, of course, to have their own objectives, check in, have a real conversation. And as long as it's for me, growth based. Yeah. Uh, we in WAPI for example, the way we've now done it is that, uh, if I have my objective, I can share it with everybody or with teammates. And I can ask input, uh, input and feedback feed forward of colleagues, but also people outside the company I could ask input from you, uh, Stella, and then you will need to select was Bruce at his full potential and acquire new skills. Was he just in his normal way using his skillset or was he not at his full potential? And just by thinking about that, it creates a real conversation on the skills that you have though, and not just on an outcome that you've realized. So for me, this is what's leaders in company. People can do make it more systemic in all of that, but that of course requires take mentorship, take feedback, how to give and receive good feedback. That's an art in itself. It's not easy.
Speaker 1:I think that's where the, uh, the feed forward concept is so important. We were running a program last week where feedback was one of the pieces of conversation. Um, and the first thing we did was we asked people to on a, uh, board, uh, put emote to cons as to how they felt about giving feedback and how they felt about receiving feedback. And we just asked them the question kind of straight off without talking about what feedback was. And almost everybody said, I really don't really like giving feedback and almost all of them said, and I don't like getting feedback, but when we started to expand the conversation, kind of having that knowledge, that for most people, it's not a nice, not a pleasant experience traditionally. And then we introduced them to the feed forward concept. And this idea about, you know, what you're doing is you're looking at what people are doing while you're looking about what they could do in the future and not concentrating on what went wrong in the past, because you can't change that. Um, and they really began to sort of feel much more comfortable about this idea. And then we put them into breakouts and they had to go and it, and they came out saying, actually that was, that was quite empowering because I'm, I'm supporting, I'm really genuinely supporting this person and I've got a kind of a process to do it. Yes. And, and so, so then they liked giving feedback or feed forward and they enjoyed receiving it because it was constructive.
Speaker 2:No, I can relate enormously to the, to this concept. Uh, yes. Stella. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So any other, any other, you know,
Speaker 2:Three things that are probably more than enough, there's probably other things, but, um, I don't know, communication also, ah, communicate is always an important piece, but honestly those three things, the shift from within the really empowering, uh, on all aspects and then holistically thinking about the processes or mentorship feedback objectives, and all of the other aspects, if we can go there, then I think you're having an organic future-proof organization.
Speaker 1:I think we should start helping people to do that. And I know at WAPI, that is what YPO is designed to do really isn't it?
Speaker 2:Well, what P is a piece of the, is a piece of the funnel. PYP is indeed a, a talent platform that enables, uh, feedback, uh, mentorship, those objectives in a very different way. It will, people have an internal LinkedIn, they can share their skills. So it's already based on their skills and the strengths we adopt feed forwards, uh, principle, uh, and, and, and even team feedback, team feed for principals. So it's, it's a platform to do that at scale on the systemic. Uh, and, but it incites people to also shift from within of course, and it empowers people. Um, but this alone will not work the combination. And that's the nice partnership, uh, with sterile labs, for example, is you need to provide content as well. You need to do the trainings, let the people taste the chocolate. Yeah, yeah. That is, that is in the end of the day, that counts as well. So it's both elements together can really do magic.
Speaker 1:Sure. Bruce, when you said provide content, cause I know, I know that, you know, how we work, the content is just not sufficient for learning. What we need is actually should provide learning experiences, which is just what you were talking about earlier on. So content is a part of that really important that people have content, but you can throw content at people. And that's what you know, has happened traditionally with, with LMS and things. There's just, you know, millions and millions of content is available everywhere. We're not short of content. We might be sure to the right content. Sometimes it's actually, what, what should you do with it? How do you apply it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And now we come back your humps and right. And it's good to clarify that indeed, I should use the different words. It is indeed about the experience you experiential the tasting, then it's really embedding it.
Speaker 1:Yes. And then the reflecting afterwards, you know, now I've experienced it. Hmm. What did I learn from that experience? And what do I need to change the next time? You know, I do this or I try this thing. So it's that real kind of learning journey where we're content might be a part of it, but also equally it could just be an actual experience. You have, it may not be content related at all. And what we're trying to do is get away from this kind of focus on content and classrooms in the moment and kind of, you know, what I call magic wand learning, you know, you'll go on a course and then you'll be magically, you know, transformed. Every transformation is, is a journey. It takes time, it takes energy and it takes, you know, um, bravery, I think from you as a person to, to test out, to try new things, to experiment. I was talking to, um, Mark Ramaz from new Novartis this week and we talked about the scientists' mindset. And actually if we could encourage everyone to have that kind of, you know, curious, researching experiment, ting testing, having perhaps a hypothesis that you can either prove or disprove and both are fine, it doesn't matter if you prove or disprove it because that is actually another piece of evidence that helps you move forwards. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, the book from Adam Grant think again, talks exactly about the scientist mindset. Really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was completely
Speaker 2:Convinced and it's sometimes quite confrontational for myself, like, Hmm, am I adopting this all the time? Nope. So that's a nice, it's a journey that you can never really reach. Uh, you can see the top of that. You can never really reach it with, which is nice because keep on the improving,
Speaker 1:What are your views then? Cause I think that's really interesting, isn't it? That, you know, I think we sometimes strive for perfection and if I do this, then I'll become that. And if I, if I become that, then you know, then I'll have reached my ultimate peak of whatever it might be, uh, trying to reach. What do you feel your views on kind of making that journey enjoyable and productive and valuable? Because if you're always looking to the, always looking to the future, you're never actually enjoying the stops along the way.
Speaker 2:I always say skills rather than job titles. So what, what I mean is, um, if you focus on learning and developing skills, I do think it can be more rewarding than purely going for a certain job title or a certain promotion. And I do believe that if you go for skills, then automatically opportunities will come. Um, and it's nicer to not always have just one very concrete end game in mind because then you always look to the future of what you want to achieve. And it's harder to, I think, enjoy the present moment, the present moment of learning, not putting direct pressure on I'm learning this for that. I'm learning this for that. No, let's be in the present moment of learning. Um, I've was a bit in the trap to the last two years in the corporate world. I have to be honest, that was also like, uh, um, love to be a this, and then, and then, and then it goes fast and you get those promotions and you get the things on the shoulder and before, you know, you forget to learn, and then you asked yourself the question, do I want to do this now? Is this the right moment? Uh, and I assume a few, at least a few of us, um, may have the same, uh, the same experiences. So it, for me, it's all about trying to be, to be in the moment of, of learning, thinking about the skills and not purely about job titles.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's really nice. So, so skills focus rather than, than job titles, right?
Speaker 2:Well, at least, and then job titles is a big thing. We all had job titles. The world's still sometimes need job titles. I'm certainly not again in job titles. It's not to say certainly not, but it's more to not envision just, there's only one beds to one specific role.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I D you know, in my career, I've, I've moved from, I started my career as a it programmer, and then I kind of moved into sort of it support and consulting. And then I, I just switched entirely into, into L and D, which for me was like a massive, um, revelation and kind of, you know, it was where I found myself. But now I'm kind of shifting again in the, you know, yes, I'm still completely passionate about Lindy, but actually what I'm really interested now is, you know, how to be a good leader because that, you know, that's a new role for me. Okay. I led my previous company, but now, you know, this is a bigger company, we've got big ambitions. So how to be a good leader is, you know, a massive learning journey for me. And I've, I've taken on a coach in order to help me with that because I really think, you know, I need, I need somebody to guide me, to support me, to give me feedback, to challenge me
Speaker 2:And what are some of the things you're trying to put in place and learning.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that I really need to do more, um, is it's actually asked for help more, um, I'm quite an independent person. I've spent a lot of time, you know, figuring out things for myself. Um, so I'm actually realizing how important it is to, to ask for help, to ask for mentorship, to ask for support. So that's my, that's my big, new thing is to be brave and say, will you help me? And actually of course, you know, people almost always, well, yeah, but there was an element of, there was an element of, um, you know, I don't want to bother people. I don't want to disturb people, but actually what I'm now recognizing is that people actually like to do that.
Speaker 2:They feel loved. They feel valued, they feel valued.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, yeah. So that's my, that's my current leadership journey. Wonderful Stella, wonderful. Bruce, it's been a delight talking to you. Um, we've had a few conversations, but I think I've, I've learned a lot more about you in this, in this conversation and maybe even a little about me and certainly some of the things that are going to be important going forward for, for all of us, for, you know, individuals, for leaders and, and for organizations. So thank you so much for being part of our conversation, our podcast today. Is there anything, um, you know, that you want to sort of tell the world about what you do at whoppy that you want to perhaps just tell us your website?
Speaker 2:Well, I would actually want to thank you for the, for the good exchange and moments. Uh, I jotted down quickly, uh, already three ideas while just talking to each other, always triggers things. Um, no, if people are, people are curious about 12:00 PM. I think the website is there. It's written H U a P I it's WAPI, uh, it's actually the oldest national park in Patagonia. And when you look at it, it shows organic ways of working. It's beautiful, it's nature. And that's what we try to stand for. Human happy is an old recommendation to use, but the website has a story and has a, has everything. So people are curious. No problem. People want to reach out personally. No problem with that.
Speaker 1:You so much, Bruce. That was, that was great. It was really nice to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Please share it with your friends and colleagues and visit our website, Stella labs.edu, to learn more about what we do and how we do it tune into the next episode.