Many of us have migrated to using digital technology during the pandemic but not everyone is seeing the benefits. Tina Harris, one of our Senior Learning Specialists tells us how and why she has become a digital fan. Take some top tips from Tina and you'll never look back.
Many of us have migrated to using digital technology during the pandemic but not everyone is seeing the benefits. Tina Harris, one of our Senior Learning Specialists tells us how and why she has become a digital fan. Take some top tips from Tina and you'll never look back.
Welcome to the Stella labs podcast, future learning today at Stella labs, our mission is to bust the technology skills crunch with effective, measurable, engaging training. We consult on design and deliver the technical and people skills and competencies you need in business. In these podcasts, you'll hear from industry experts and practitioners from the worlds of technology and training, they'll share their experience, insights and inspiration and their visions for the future. With you, keep listening to start your future learning here.
Speaker 2:Welcome star labs podcast, where today I'm talking to our very own Tina Harris sealing a learning specialist at Stella labs. Many organizations were already investigating digital before Corona, but the pandemic has accelerated the use of digital until it's become commonplace to many of us. I still loved our DNA, includes people, science process, tap and data, all of which influence our learning methodology, whether we're working digitally face-to-face or fully blended. So it still allows we're very pragmatic and we know many people are looking for experience and expertise and using digital learning from the coalface and the people who've changed their ways of working successfully. And that's why we're talking to you, Tina cleaner. Tell us just a little bit about, about
Speaker 3:You brought me. Um, okay. So I've been in learning for for many years now, um, too many, too many to count. Um, I've actually worked closely with Euston or as many people know for probably about 15 years now. Scary, isn't it? Um, and I'm the lead designer and facilitator within Stella labs for our com trains train or train smarter program. Um, as well as many other things, um, like many people in learning, I kind of, um, I'm involved in design and delivery of all sorts of, uh, of programs.
Speaker 2:Okay, fantastic. Um, so what was your experience of digital before the pandemic?
Speaker 3:He's weird. This next assessment is such a long time. Um, I was, yeah, to think back, I think. Um, so certainly I touched on digital. Um, I had run a series of webinars normally with someone else, um, linked to the neuroscience of learning and, and making change stick. I, and that was really, um, to, to open it up to more people, so fruit and from an accessibility point of view. Um, but I was definitely much less comfortable with digital facilitation. We did also use digital, um, in some pre-work and follow up stuff that we, we do did at the time. Um, and some element of digital within the sessions themselves as well to mix it up a, um, but nowhere near to the extent that we do.
Speaker 2:So we definitely started hadn't when, in our previous company using a platform, but it was, it was early days, wasn't it? Yeah. Um, you know, I wasn't even, even working, um, digitally because I, by that time had moved to Spain and he was still in the UK. So, you know, we were becoming familiar with it, but I wouldn't say we were competent with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think definitely my comfort zone was always around face-to-face stuff. That's really where I kind of, you know, that's where I felt at my best. I felt the most comfortable, and that was really for me why I did the job at the time. Okay.
Speaker 2:So, so tell us about what's changed in the last 18 months, period. Some maybe some of your, yeah, definitely your successes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I certainly like everybody else. Um, it, you know, it's been very different. Um, that's actually been a great opportunity and it has, for me, I've been very lucky. It's felt like that all the way through. There's obviously been challenges because of what's been going on around all of us. But, um, what I really liked in a way has been this very weird situation applied to all of us. So whether we were designing, facilitating, or even just participating in something, um, everybody seemed to be rooting for each other. So it was a really nice kind of level playing field to, to, um, learn and, and learn really quickly. So my direction definitely didn't change, you know? Um, but I just achieved it so much quicker because we had come this, this weird situation, um, specific examples we'd started on a learning platform where I wasn't particularly fully utilizing it. Um, and so we were able to make it more of a journey. So for me, that was really important and that's what I've been working towards. It, it was always a program. Um, it was never just an event, but I don't think we were quite at the point where it felt like a journey. Um, and, um, I was able to introduce many more blended things into programs, um, uh, combining digital and live online. So, so digital encompasses so many different things. Doesn't it? Um, so yeah, utilizing that platform really well was, was a big jump.
Speaker 2:Uh, what do you think helped change it into a journey?
Speaker 3:I think it was the platform for me, I think, um, and utilizing the full extent of the platform that we had. Um, it was definitely about getting people, uh, talking to each other before the program, considering why they were doing it, getting to know each other, discussing things. Um, then it was able to do more modularly, um, and have stuff, you know, put more theory, um, into things that happen maybe before we got together in life situations, whereas maybe in the past we dealt with more of that in the live situation. Um, so yeah, it feels more like, uh, uh, more of a bite size, a program, but more bite sized chunks in different formats.
Speaker 2:Um, and, and I know recently you've been, you've been kind of going a little bit off piece here, but I know recently you've been kind of getting people more engaged and actually using the platform themselves. So rather than it being something where we share information, you did a really good job of getting people engaged on the platform. So what do you think has helped with, with that? Cause that's a big challenge for a lot of people's insects. Definitely.
Speaker 3:I think, I think setting seen right from the start is really important. So we start on the platform, um, and we do things like put videos on there. You know, I put my, kind of introduce myself on the video and I'm actually speaking to somebody and encouraging them to use the platform to debate with each other, um, sparking off a couple of conversations on the platform, but actually, um, making it theirs and again, talking about it. So whenever, you know, whenever we do a live session, um, linking it back to, well, actually there was a really interesting discussion on the platform about that. And so just bringing it back each time, um, to that. And actually now I've just literally finished a course for probably about, uh, about three weeks ago now. And I got one person on that, on that. Who's still asking me questions, which is, can't be a negative in some ways, but actually I'm able to then say, well actually, you know, have a look down here or I'll direct you in another area. Um, because they, they really like interacting in that way. Definitely find some people take to it more than others. Um, and you know, it, I think it's about having that ability to utilize it and it's social proof, isn't it? The more people that use it within the group, the more people use it.
Speaker 2:And I know you specifically, you've tried to create curiosity at the beginning. So can you just give us just a quick description of how you did that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I, um, often within the, the programs themselves will have some curiosity building thing, then it might ask people to bring along things to, to the session. Um, and I'll ask the question. Why do you think I asked you to bring this along? Um, and that, you know, often it's, I like to definitely keep it light in the first instance, if I can keep it, uh, related to the learning, that's fantastic, but very lightly and curiosity right. In that first instance, and then obviously building from there, and that helps to create that, that safe environment and an, um, what I like is an environment where it's okay to guess and get it wrong. So by doing it that way in the first place, um, it, it sets the scene subliminally without people realizing it. Um, so that I, I found it really hard and I know
Speaker 2:For many of our kind of regular listeners, um, they will probably recognize that what are the things you ask people to bring certainly to the train smarter program is, is chocolates, which seems to always raise curiosity, but what hadn't done before, what you hadn't done before was actually say to them on the platform, why do you think we've asked you to bring that they'd spark a really good conversation? And that
Speaker 3:Definitely, that's a really
Speaker 2:Simple thing that anybody could do. It's kind of about bringing up front the questions that might be, we'll be there anyway. You know, I think people are already say, well, why do we have to take chocolate? But you brought it up front, you've discussed it. And you'd given everybody an opportunity to, to expand on their, on their intuition as to why that might be.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think when we run an open program as well, I've all my deaf, my experience has definitely been an activity for people to get to know each other before they join each other on the live lab, again, a thumb activity to do that quickly. Um, but just maybe take it out of, and even if it's, if it's, in-house, you know, just out of the general day to day work stuff sometimes, um, that can really help. Okay. So
Speaker 2:Something that makes the platform seem like this, isn't just a serious thing. It's a place to have a conversation.
Speaker 3:It's a social place to have a conversation within a specific field on a particular. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not just, it's not just general chat. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So that was the platform. I think I definitely, um, learned some stuff with the actual virtual sessions themselves. So that's been a really interesting learning curve and, uh, you know, thinking about it, I'm just thinking back to the early days one client, um, I particularly remember it was a really weird situation where, um, I was virtual, but actually we'd started the program pre COVID and then they were still working because they were in pharmaceutical industry. Um, and so they still needed to go into the office or the labs. Um, so we have this kind of in the early days, this weird hybrid situation where I was, uh, you know, virtually doing it, but they were in the offices. Um, so that was an interesting, uh, interesting exercise. Um,
Speaker 2:You learned from that, cause I think that is a big challenge for lots of people.
Speaker 3:Yes. I learned a lot actually. I mean, it worked, um, well in many ways I think, because I got to know him a little bit beforehand, that was helpful to a certain degree. Um, but I learnt, uh, some of the things, the mistakes is where I learned most. And one of the things I did learn very, very small, but actually quite important, I thought because we were socially distancing, um, and they were socially distancing at their end. And so they were in little breakout rooms of their own. Um, I mistakenly thought, well, I don't need to put them in breakout rooms in the technology because they're already physically in breakout rooms. And it's only when I came to do it. I realized actually that was wrong. So the, it was ideal because I could see them all. Um, but it wasn't ideal because they didn't feel open to be able to talk because obviously everybody could hear each other. Um, so whilst they had their mics off, they didn't necessarily talk to me as the facilitator and ask the questions of me as a facilitator that I would've liked. So again, that was just a thrown in the deep end, do it learn from it. Okay. Well, I need to put them in breakout rooms in the technology as well as in the, you know, in the situation itself. And so little things like that, um, in those odd situations. And then of course we've done, you know, completely virtual, um, on lots of different platforms, um, spanning lots of different platforms. So, you know, maybe using Adobe connect, zoom, sometimes even teams, which isn't ideal or not my preferred route, but, um, yeah. And other things like maybe we played a little bit with this gather town that's in beta version. So during that time I
Speaker 2:Really like Albertan. I think it has the ability to do something really different to the other platforms and feel it's not real, but it feels more fun. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think flexibility is key because, um, I think we can, we can re we know what works best from a technology perspective and we can recommend technology, but we do need to bear in mind that, you know, some people may be regularly using a piece of technology may be more familiar with that, and that might have more advantages in some circumstances. So being flexible about it, I think,
Speaker 2:And I know that's a conversation we were having earlier today is understanding what's the client or what are the learners familiar with? There's nothing wrong with introducing them to new tech. So how do you, how do you do that if they're perhaps not familiar with something, but then you need to introduce them to something new.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I tend to do it quite gradually, um, within the program itself. So as an example, if it's completely new piece of tech, then getting on to it, is there a key concern in the first place and that can, that can be where things tend to go wrong. Um, so we send out tests and say his test links beforehand. We encourage people to come on a little bit early on the first one. So they feel comfortable and calm. Um, you know, really acknowledges that sometimes it doesn't, you don't click the button and everything works straight away and that's just part of the process and that's how it works. Um, so just keeping that, that sense of calmness can be really important. And then as you go through the program, I grew up tend to gradually build. So I'll often do an exercise, you know, initially we're going to use the annotate tool. Now here's how you use the AMATYC tool and we're gradually build on that. And then we go onto a different tool. You know, there's not a huge amount that is not overly complex. Um, I wouldn't introduce anything too complex anyway, but just recognizing that buttons are in different places for people. And that can take time and actually, you know, so you have to be really clear with your, uh, instructions and it doesn't hurt to repeat them. Um, different people, different people will, some people will be, do pick it up really, really quickly. And for others, they weren't such as continually repeating. And the way you do that is to click this and do that.
Speaker 2:Okay. And so you said earlier, you were talking about sort of the hybrid approach. Have you had the experience yet where you've had, so one of the questions I wanted to check with you, first of all, was when you put these people into breakout rooms who are really already in breakout rooms, did you put them in the same proximity, put them in the same breakout room. So for three people in one room, they went into one breakout room. Yeah. Clarify that you weren't mixing them up. Yeah. Okay. And then have you had the experience where you've had some people, because I know this is the challenge and I've been involved in myself sometimes where you've got some people are face-to-face with you or without you, and some people are in another space digitally, have you had that experience? I
Speaker 3:Have had that challenge and I must admit, and this was again early on with the same client, interestingly, because it, because it was so successful, um, what they actually said was we want to include the U S within this. Um, and so we'd like to bring it all together. Um, and we could have the UK people in the labs and the offices, and we could have the U S people online from home. Um, I must've met at the time, whether it was the right decision or the wrong decision, I'm not a hundred percent convinced, but I really felt at that point it was wrong because when we, uh, it was wrong to have them in different ways, because one, I knew the UK people and I felt it would feel wrong if it, if it felt like I was with the UK people and the U S people that it was different for. So I asked the UK people to go into offices and actually go, they were still together, but they were each online on their own laptops. So everybody was on an equal playing field in that situation. I don't know whether that's right in all situations, but for me, I feel happier if, if all of the participants, if possible are in the same scenario, I agree
Speaker 2:With you. I think, you know, we've all had experiences where you can spend more time trying to deal with the tech and the people, you know, can you see this? Can you see that? Now we can see it. We can't see it. And I think that just really detracts from the learning. And I really like your idea of actually kind of democratizing it. So everybody is, you know, people maybe in the same physical space, they're actually still on their computers and accessing it
Speaker 3:Digitally. Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 2:So I think that's the way to deal with hybrid that hybrid opportunity, not to have some people who can collaborate round a table, and some people who are stuck in a breakout room in the middle of wherever their services.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's the thing, I mean, to be honest, digital is exactly the same principles. The science of learning is the same. However you deliver something, the principles are the same. It's just, you have a few, you have different challenges and advantages in each situation, I think. Um, do you think
Speaker 2:There are any advantages to digital? Oh,
Speaker 3:Go on. Sorry. Yeah, I'm a real digital fan now, and this is coming from somebody who loves face to face. Um, but no, I'm a real digital fan. I think, uh, some, some of the things I've found interesting, um, have been, um, I love this chat function to the fact that people can be throwing questions at me the whole time. Um, and, and I think that's right, you know, I can pick and choose how I answered them when I answered them and what happens, but people feel that they can do that. So that's the first point of call. They don't feel like they're interrupting me because actually I'm, I I'm pulling from the chat, um, at my own pace, but they feel they can put the question out there. Um, I love the fact that some people who, uh, don't necessarily engage vocally, really engage via the chat. So for some people that really works for them and others who they might need to think more typing it in the chat, more happy to do it very quickly. And I think if you could mix it up for them and have that ability, um, that's great. I think it's, it's given us access to more people, um, who would have perhaps previously been, been left out from doing it. And I think, um, initially I was really concerned whether you could get that, uh, connection with people. And I think still potentially it's a little bit of a problem if you've got really big groups, but again, you have that face-to-face anyway with smaller groups, you know, um, we still, well, I certainly still do the same, you know, get them moving around. I, you know, I really try and make sure I apply all the principles that I apply face to face somehow, albeit maybe slightly differently, but somehow within the digital learning and it really makes a difference. People like to do it a bit differently. People like be asked to go stand up and find something or go and do this, or actually pick up your mobile. And we'll just do a quick mental on your mobile, take a walk, think about it, you know, those kinds of things. Um, and as a facilitator from a really purely selfish point of view, um, I do find it equally as rewarding as I do face to face. And I think, again, that's because what may have happened previously was we, we were doing a one day, two day course. Um, and then I didn't really see them very much. Whereas now I can do a six module program and get to know them gradually. And oh, how did, how did that work when you applied that at work? All those, because I'm actually getting a better, um, experience as a facilitator.
Speaker 2:And I think it allows me, it allows you as a learning designer and facilitator and for the learner, it actually spaces the learning in a more natural, holistic way, you know, in the way that we would have liked to have done with, um, face-to-face but actually, you know, if you were flying people in from here there or everywhere, even if they're just having to get the train from London to Birmingham, then they couldn't do that at once, you know, a half a session every week and implement something in between. Whereas now we can, we can do that. So I think in terms of the space learning, I think it's really
Speaker 3:Valid. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. I still, I still would, like, I think there's it's horses for courses. And I think there are situations where face-to-face, um, really upscale you. So I know that in one situation in particular, I've had where it was, um, a new group of people who I'd not met before, um, where there was some definite communication challenges and some issues that it was harder for me to pick up. It's harder for you to pick up on cues sometimes digitally. And so in those kinds of situations, you know, or in that particular situation, I said, you know, if we can hold off until we can go face to face, I think that will be better for those particular individuals because they need to get to know me and trust me and, and, and those kinds of things. So there's, you know, there are some negatives it's harder to see the cues. Um, you're not necessarily, uh, before, when you make people break out into groups, you had an overview of what was happening, who was struggling, how to help her out. You haven't necessarily got as much oversight on that, but there are things you can do to help on that front, but it's not exactly the same. So I w I definitely wouldn't say, oh, no, digital, you know, virtual face-to-face is, is the best. I would just say, uh, you know, different situations.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's part of the blend and truly blended program would choose when you have people face to face when they use a platform, when they use alternative tools, when they're in a breakout room or a breakout room, you know, like Adobe connect or something. So I think a truly blended approach would, it would just decide at what point is it the right thing to do? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:And for me, I definitely it's changed the content of the programs as well. There is going in somewhere else and actually the live sessions are about exploring and experimenting with that theory, um, a lot more and applying it. So it's a slightly different emphasis as well, I think. Okay.
Speaker 2:I used to really think that you sort of, you know, particularly around using digital that you've, you've picked up kind of the evidence around how it's, it's helpful. I mean, sort of the neuroscience that you've picked up, anything like that.
Speaker 3:Um, so I think, um, just referring back, so the, the science is still the same, so the neuroscience is still the same and actually, um, what we need to be careful of, I think is that it's, we make sure it's continues to be learner focused. So it's about the learner. So how, you know, tech takeover from the experience it's about that, it's still about the learner. Um, it, it's raised a few challenges, so, you know, distraction for one of them. Um, we might have a little bit less control over external distraction. Um, and what I've learned from that is if, if you really don't have any control over it, you can't, you can't control it to a certain degree by setting up the situation and contracting and saying, you know, this is how it's gonna work. Um, but if somebody, his daughter walks in the room, um, is it, how do you embrace it? So, you know, I, I had you bring them in on it, or what can you do to embrace distractions you can't control. And then what can you do to influence internal distractions? So, and that's about kind of avoiding cognitive overload and trying to really, uh, try and do too much, have too many objectives, um, going down that curse of the expert route, all of those, you know, making sure you're not doing any of that. Um, so that the, the brain resources can really focus in the right area and less inclined to be distracted and keeping people engaged. So it's about the environment, but it's also about keeping them engaged. And so that's really, I just changing it up constantly, you know, what you're learning, how you're learning it, what you're doing, um, and just keeping them engaged throughout. So that's, there's lots of things you can do from a distraction perspective. Um, what else is there in terms of, uh, the brain, I suppose connection's quite key one that we know connection, you know, again, face-to-face, we know people learn really well. Um, um, connection can really help that, and conversation is really key, key to learning. And, and again, we can do it with talked a little bit in that before, but we can do that. We can start that off through the platform. So actually potentially, um, it's a different type of connection sometimes. Um, but we can, you know, we can actually make that more longer and ongoing as well.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by it's a different type of connection? That's an interesting
Speaker 3:Thing. I suppose, one of the, one of the things we've all waste done in the past when we do face to face is, you know, really that getting people, doing stuff straight to and getting to know each other straight away. So as they walk in the room, you know, they're given an exercise to do with a partner. They, they do the exercise is linked to the learning, but then they're also having a bit of a social chit-chat in it. Oh, by the way, Joe, what do you do then? Where are you based what's going on there? You know, that kind of stuff. And that's all part of it to create that, that environment you don't necessarily have that you can create it in some ways, but you, you don't have that immediate, perhaps more social connection in the live lab as such, because normally you don't have real time for that. Um, so you can create it a little bit in the learning, but I haven't found you've had as much opportunity for it. Um, but because it's shorter over a longer period that that connection builds, but it builds more slowly perhaps is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So you still go by the end of the program, people are still active and we know that they're saying to us, well, you know, can you make sure we're all connected? We want to talk around Rob and often actually that is, you know, the platform is a place where they can continue those conversations or other digital means
Speaker 3:Definitely. And I would think at the end of the program, that they're more connected to me than perhaps in a shorter face to face, but it's not, it's not quite as deep as quickly.
Speaker 2:Is there anything, so one of the things that, you know, the platform allows us to do, and, you know, the whole digital world allows us to do is collect a little bit more data. You know, if you just face to face, you've got the data where they in the room or not, but that's probably about the only data you actually collect, you know, kind of consciously collect. Um, obviously as a train, you're collecting all sorts of data, but what, what's your kind of view around collecting the data from the digital aspects that we now have access to?
Speaker 3:Well, certainly it enables us to more data and more data points. I think that's quite key because again, maybe our experience has been, and it gets depends whether you're working internally or externally. Um, but if you're going into a company, for example, you might only have a point at which you can clap that data and you have to rely on the company to collect other data. Um, but I think it's, um, it's not about collecting data for data's sake, that will concern me. Cause you can end up with all these spreadsheets and this there's wonderful things. And, you know, do we really need that? I, so for me, data is linked to what's the objectives and being really clear about those organizational objectives. So, you know, what, what are the outcomes for the company? What, what, you know, what's going to happen there? What is somebody going to be different doing differently in the work place? So how are they going to transfer it in the workplace? So how can we measure that, um, what learning objectives do they do? So how can we measure that in comparison before, during, and after the program, what they're doing differently, whether that's knowledge or skills or, or attitude. And then there's something about, um, not just the traditional feedback on the program, which maybe we've done, which I think is still important. I do think that's important because that impacts people's motivation. Um, but things like motivation, self-efficacy, um, volition, you know, all those I, I want to, I'm able to, and I'm going to commit to doing it. Um, and I have the support to do it. You know, we can ask all sorts of questions and different situations, which will help us really, you know, look at was this effective. And that's what I think we've we've, we need to prove our worth. Um, and in order to prove our worth, we need to really be thinking about, is this effective the end of the day, it's about
Speaker 2:Us proving our worth as facilitators or learning designers or L and D managers, whatever we might be. But do you think the data can support the learners? Do they like to be able to see, well, you know, I started off this program on competent communication and perhaps, you know, I, I didn't feel I was very competent. My, my sort of self-efficacy was, was low. And then, and then you get to the end and they can kind of go, oh, well, actually, yeah, I now have some tactics and tools. So if you think it helps them, how does it help them learning?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I said, well, it certainly does help the learning because we all know that, you know, you get, you feel like you're getting some way you get that little dopamine hit that encourages you to go a little bit further and a little bit further. And so we know that's how the brain works and that's what, that's what helps learning. Um, and I think the more things we've got saying, you know, you're making progress and sometimes that progress might be go backwards and tell us more about that. Well, an example might be, you know, it's, it's this kind of, uh, unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, competent, you know, theory. Um, so for instance, you know, somebody might join a program and you ask them to rate themselves, you know, do you w what do you think? You, you know, you are doing this and they say, oh, great, you're doing this. And then they actually learn more and learn more and more. And they go, actually, no, cause I've got, now I've got more to learn. So they might actually, you know, do that. So as long as they feel, they're able to learn that and they're on the path to learning that, but the scores might go down in those instances. So it, again, you know, it's, it's about collecting the data, but also understanding the data and understanding the objectives so much more. Um, and so those objectives are really concrete objectives, but they are also those more abstract objectives, you know, I know, I know it's confidence, it's hard to measure, so we measure self efficacy, but it's all important in learning. You have to, you know, you have to have that motivation and some of that confidence as well as the, um, knowledge and skills. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely about collecting the data and then it needs to be interpreted with some, well, certainly a higher level of understanding of what's actually happens through that trajectory that the data has been collected. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I mean, digital, digital, we can do that now and we've got it. And I think the main thing is there is a longer period now to do that. I mean, it's, it's easier to capture so much easier to capture. Um, so yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Okay. And is there anything else in terms of your kind of practice that perhaps you want to develop for yourself or that you're thinking with your, with your, um, you know, your participants, your learners, your people that you want to kind of, I dunno, try the next thing in terms of digital, the future of digital beauty,
Speaker 3:The future of digital for me. Oh, crumbs. It's an interesting one. Um, I think, I think there's loads really. We can always get better at it. I think so, you know, I've got loads of ideas. It's not, to be honest, it's not so much about trying lots of different tools. Um, I've never been a, a real early adopter of technology for the sake of technology. Um, I wanted to
Speaker 2:Talk to you because I remember getting a bit skeptical.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Or just, I'm not a person who has to have the latest iPhone or read the strategy notes for me. It's just not, it's just not my bag. Um, but the only time I really get into technologies right. And really see it doing something and I can really see why I should use this piece of technology. So, um, so for me, I know there's lots of technology out there, and I'm really lucky because I'm in a position where I'm talking to lots of people and I'm training trainers and they can all give me lots of tips and say, Tina, have you tried this? I can go, no, let's give that a go. Um, but I will ultimately, it's about being able to achieve what I want to achieve just you to me. So, but I just think there's so many new things coming out that can help with that. I mean, I'm, I'm playing, um, with various, you know, gathered town. I love the idea of, of being in a pretend office and, um, you know, creating stuff around that. So that works for me. Um, so if I can see it, it making life better and easier, then I'll go with that. But not for the sake of, cause it's a new, new gadget that doesn't float my boat or, okay.
Speaker 2:So have you participated so using VR or anything like that? Virtual reality?
Speaker 3:I haven't, but again, I th again, I think, um, I know, you know, more about, but that the me, and I think if I have a situation where I think that's going to help, or that's something I should be looking at, like, w that would be for me when I investigated some thoughts and I mean, I'm sure it must work better in different situations. So I suppose for skills practice, it's really good, but yeah. And I know
Speaker 2:It's been used for, you know, training pilots, training doctors, but also there was an interesting study and I think they might have a PWC did it, but then it was an interesting study and they looked at actually training empathy, and they found that people who had gone through a VR experience in empathy were actually measured as being more empathetic afterwards than a face-to-face
Speaker 3:Experience. It's interesting that
Speaker 2:I don't know whether it made it well, they can't have made it more real. I'm not sure what it was exactly in terms of, but the VR definitely improved the, oh,
Speaker 3:Right. You said that now you said that I'm intrigued because I was wondered how best to train empathy. So I can now connect that to something. So if you had
Speaker 2:To give people, I don't know, three top tips to kind of, you know, really help them, because I think, you know, I think now most people have got used to using digital, but a lot of people are still just using it, you know, in a very basic way. Um, I was in a session recently where very, very willing people, very keen to get people involved, but they really struggled to actually get people involved in the digital. So we, as the audience were sort of expected just to sit there and listen. And every time that the poor facilitator said, we really want you contributing in the chat window. You know, two of us would contribute something in the chat window and everybody else didn't. And by the end of one particular session, everybody had just literally turned off their screens and were clearly doing something different. You know, they really zoned out what sort of real things can you do to, you know, perhaps right from the start to really increase that engagement in that kind of, and
Speaker 3:I'm conscious, we're talking about kind of virtual delivery digital. So there's obviously other digital and, and e-learning, and, and all sorts of different things, digital, um, in the world. But I suppose if you were specifically looking at it live, um, there's, there's many things. I mean, for me, uh, is the, the presence of the facilitators goes all this stuff. We know really, but sometimes we stop applying because we've gone onto this digital framework and we think it doesn't apply in that situation. And it does. So, um, you know, I always stand when I deliver digitally, I think from an energy perspective, that makes a difference. And I definitely notice that people kind of sit up a little bit more and, and do that. And that's my anchor for the training. Um, getting people to do stuff, you know, I do use their names. I do put in image breakouts a lot, you know, getting, giving them the opportunity to verbally talk, then asking them to feed back what they verbally talked about in the chat. She sort of, to me is it's mixing it up, um, getting them to, um, yeah, I, I, I actually right from get, go, yeah, I get them on the chat literally straight away. Right. Tell me on the chat. So they're just used to using it. Um, you know, where are you, um, what's happening for you at the moment? You know, we have social chat while we're waiting for everybody to join both verbally, but also via the chat. So they immediately know that, um, we're going to talk. Um, but when I ask them to talk and I'll ask them to put their mic on, otherwise let's use the chat. Um, and then I'll, I'll often say to people, you said that in the chat, put your mind con tell me more about it. Kind of
Speaker 2:You're using chapter as a way for them to communicate with you and for each other. I love it when people start chatting on the chat, kind of related to the main question, but they're actually having almost a, you know, it's as if there was spring in the back of the room, but they're not disturbing anybody. And then of course, you've got that information and it's shared and everybody else can see it.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know, that they're, uh, that we're talking about what they're talking about as well, rather than that whisper,
Speaker 2:But it stops you feeling, you know, concerned what they say, because you can see it, but that's actually shows that they're engaged in the conversation if they're having a conversation on that chat. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think you have to, I think for me, the key is you have to set it right up from the get go. You know, if you, if you spend 10 minutes talking at them and then you say, tell me in the chat, it's not going to happen. That it needs to be immediately as they come into the room, get them to do something on the chat, ask a question. I do, I'm very clear to say, like feedback to me in the chat. You're asked this question and I do, I'm quite lucky on one of the platforms we use, you'll get like a little engagement, a traffic light system. Um, and so that's, I find that really useful sometimes because I can see, okay, well, I've got a lot of, uh, a lot of people on green. Um, but so-and-so's on'em, but they haven't contributed very much so I can do the normal, you know, um, that person, what I'll often do in that situation is I'll say, yeah, I just switched all my Connell. Tell me in the chat, because I know personally it takes me longer to construct something in the chat than it does to verbally speak. So I'm not, um, I don't, I don't converse as well by the chat as I do verbally. Um, and, and, and if it feels like it's speeding along for those people who like to really think before they write something down, then they might just be happier talking it.
Speaker 2:So it's again, it's about, so it's about starting early providing options. Yes. I'm being consistent. Yeah. I'm responding to whatever responding well to whatever, um, interactivity you're getting.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah, yeah. Positively. Okay.
Speaker 2:Any other, any other quick, um, really important things. You, you really feel everybody should know if they're about to. So
Speaker 3:I've got one thing I always say when I do train smarter and it always seems to come back at the end of train smarter as well. So I always say, if you don't take everything else away, which they do take lots of way, hopefully, um, but get them to do the work. So again, for me, that applies digitally, we can go into a digital environment and we think, oh, I need to tell them this. I need them to, um, I need, you know, I need to give them this and I need to give them that. Uh, sometimes I will just say, this is a subject I'm going to put you in a breakout room. I want you to go and find out about it. Let me know. I'm just trying really hard to get them to do as much of the work as you can, um, that will, you know, that will keep that engagement up, um, and get them to search for their own meaning. So yeah, if that's the one thing you take away from, from going digital is, is do that when you're designing something, how can I get them to do the
Speaker 2:Work? Fantastic. Thank you to you now. I think they've been really great tips in that. Um, it was nice to hear about your experience. I'm delighted that you're now kind of fully, fully, digitally, um, uh, engaged yourself.
Speaker 3:I'm definitely engaged. I'm still learning like everybody else. There's always, and I think that's the thing with digital. It continues to evolve and it continues to change and systems all have their own little quirks, but yes, it's a much more positive towards it than perhaps I was in the early days.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Thank you so much, Tina. It was lovely as always to talk to you and we'll talk to you again soon.
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