Dr. Ina-Weinbaeur Heidel reveals some of the easy to implement key factors to make training more effective. Find out what you can do by listening to this podcast.
Dr. Ina-Weinbaeur Heidel reveals some of the easy to implement key factors to make training more effective. Find out what you can do by listening to this podcast.
Welcome to the stellar labs podcast, future learning today at stellar labs, our mission is to bust the technology skills crunch with effective, measurable, engaging training. We consult on design and deliver the technical and people skills and competencies you need in business. In these podcasts, you'll hear from industry experts and practitioners from the world of technology and training. They'll share their experience insights and inspiration and their visions for the future. With you, keep listening to start your future learning here today. Hello, welcome back to the stellar labs podcast. I'm Stella Collins, chief learning officer at stellar labs. And today I'm delighted to have with me en vine bar Heidel of the Institute of transfer effectiveness en is, is CEO of the Institute of transfer effecti in Austria. And she's dedicated her professional career to understanding and improving the interface between transfer research and transfer practice in her roles. As a scientist speaker, consultant and trainer and CEO, she works relentlessly to make scientific findings applicable in practice. She's a member of our research advisory board at stellar labs, and we really enjoy working with en because she's so full of enthusiasm, fantastic ideas, and incredibly practical ideas for making sure that that learning really happens at work. So welcome en is lovely to have you here
Speaker 2:F thank you, you so much. That was a wonderful introduction. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So we're going to, we're going to get started on the conversation in, I'm gonna ask some sort of general questions and then, you know, let's just, let's just enjoy that conversation and that, that shared passion we have for making sure that training really sticks and, and has an impact at work. I think that's probably our, our strongest, um, connection point, I would say.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. So this passion<laugh> is definitely something that I've seen in, in you as well, and, and, and your partners<laugh>. So
Speaker 1:Perhaps I think it would probably help other people in if you would just give us a very short, um, so introduction at a high level to the, the transfer levers, you know, your thinking and your research about them.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm<affirmative> thank you. So sure. Uh, so maybe, uh, it, for me, it all started with a, with a very personal and a very practical problem. I, I was working at an Austrian business school where I was designing customized MBA programs for, uh, leadership development programs. I, and yeah, I was happy, uh, because those programs were fully booked and my boss was happy as well because they sold well. But then, and I guess that's maybe a question that every L and D manager asks him or herself at one point or another. This is the question of, okay, how effective are my programs? Are, are we really making kind of a difference? Are we really, um, yeah, changing people's behavior in the long run? And in the end, this is a question of meaning of the meaning of the sense of, of the usefulness of our work. And I couldn't get too rid of this question anymore. And so I started to do some research and I was kind of shocked to find out about the evolution results of Robert OV and Kirk Patrick, and, and all the other great researchers who tell us that only, yeah, 10 to 20% of what people learn in traditional training programs actually really get supplied in everyday work life. And that was, that was really kind of depressing<laugh> and, uh, yeah, I was quite, uh, quite istic at that time. And I thought, okay, I finally found a research topic that really fascinates me. So why not find kind of the holy group of transfer research kind of find out what it really takes to make training work. And it quite soon turned out that I'm not the only one who is interested in this question because transfer researchers have been dealing with it for about 120 years and their results are really astonishing, but they have a problem<laugh> transfer researchers have have, and this is quite paradoxical, have a transfer problem themselves. So they claim that practitioners are not making use of their findings. And, uh, that is not much of a surprise because as you know, a lot of research is not that easy to read. It is not that easy to apply. And this was exactly what we wanted to, um, yeah. To bring in this whole transfer research area, this bridge between transfer research and, uh, transfer practice. So how with, with which easy tools can we help practitioners L and D practitioners, uh, training facilitators to really a training work that was maybe the whole idea behind this thing. And then we came up with the 12 levers of transfer effectiveness, which is kind of the Quint essence of, uh, of transfer research, 12 easy levers, 12 easy factors that we need to focus on because we know if we change those levers a bit, then we can really increase the effectiveness of our training programs.
Speaker 1:And I think it's fascinating that you say 12 easy levers, because I think a lot of organizations think that this is going to be hard and actually it really isn't. It just needs that shift in, in mindset that shift in, in small levels of activity sometimes, I mean, sometimes it can be big levels, but it's often, it really is small levels. I was to a conference last week and I was surprised how many people were still delivering content with no thought about actually, how are we really going to make that change into behavioral change at work?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. And that is exactly what we have seen when we cooperated with you when you participated in our program that, uh, you already do so much in terms of making transfer happen. It's it's, there are huge tools. There are small tools. Everyone can start, even if you're just training facilitator somewhere far away from the company, you can start with really small steps that have a huge, a huge impact. And I think what the 12 leaders can do is, uh, to do it in a more systematic ways. So advanced companies like, uh, like yours do so much already in terms of making transfer happen. And with, with the help of the trail leaders, you may find the last, uh, blind spots, the last, uh, little, little missing parts, uh, which you can fill up to kind of create this whole transfer, effective picture.
Speaker 1:And one of the things I really like about the way you do it, uh, in it is that you split it actually into sort of three, three areas, because that makes it, you know, cognitively it's much easier to remember three things than 12. Um, and then to remember perhaps four things within three things. So perhaps you can give us a, you know, a high level oversight as to, you know, who needs to get involved, which is kind of how you do that, that split. And then give us a, a, again, a overview of, of the specific levers.
Speaker 2:So, uh, there are three areas which are important to make transfer happen. So the one are the participants, the trainee, of course, we need them on board. Uh, they need to be motivated self-efficacy<inaudible>. So these are the things we need to focus on here. And we are all quite aware of that. The second, uh, area is the training design, uh, which is kind of our home zone as L and D professionals and training facilitators. So we are quite well here. We know how to, or a lot of us know how to deliver, uh, uh, how to deliver training in an active way, in a way that, to really, uh, uh, yeah, engage with people. Um, there are some additional levers here, which are kind of quick win levers, like transcript planning. So we know, for example, if people leave the training, uh, with a concrete idea, concrete plan of their very next baby steps, then we can double or even triple transfer success rates. So this is really a quick win, uh, quick win idea. This is the second part trainee training design. And the third area is the organization. And here, of course, uh, it is not mean the meant the organization of the training program itself, but, uh, the company where the participants are working and yet to be very where we open this was the part that I've overseen for a really, really long time. So the influence of the organization where our participants go back,<laugh> when they leave our training rooms has, has such a huge influence. And we really need to focus on that as well. So these are the three areas and within these three areas, um, as, as I said, we have those 12 little easy levers, and I really like to stress that because maybe that's one of the, one of the biggest transfer secrets, make it easy for people<laugh> yes.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yes. And most of them really aren't that difficult as you say, you know, at the end of a program, or even as you go through a program, you know, you can be saying to people, so what are you planning to do? You know, the minute you get back to work. And I think, you know, for me, the, the organizational leave is around who is going to help you with, if that, you know, that might be a manager, it might be a mentor, it could be a peer. You know, that kind of social learning element I think, is, is it's so underlooked and undervalued. Exactly,
Speaker 2:Exactly. Although we keep talking about this, uh, about learning is a social process. We, we, we keep using the term again and again, but somehow we don't live up to it. As we know, all of our participants li uh, live and work in our organizational surroundings. So of course we need to focus on that as well. And then the huge question of course always is okay, but how can we make that happen? And I think that's the, that's the difficult part, uh, behind this whole transfer research part, because they share a lot of these phrases. Uh, but what we in practice need are little tools that we can easily implement. That's the, that's the magic behind it, again, making it easy also for L and D professionals and, uh, professionals and training facilitators to make transfer work. So this is really why we learned, uh, uh, the last several years to focus on the small, easy tools.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I was at a, a different conference recently. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and the idea of scaffolding came up mm-hmm<affirmative>. And what they were talking about was simple tools that managers can use in, in meetings, for example, to have effective new meetings. And that's one of the things we want to do in terms of, you know, it, it's very well known that if, you know, if your manager supports you, when you are on a training journey on a learning journey, if your manager supports you, that will really, really help you to, to transfer stuff into work. And I think one of the challenges we might have is a lot of people don't like feedback, particularly neither giving nor receiving mm-hmm<affirmative>. So we've switched to using feed forward as a, as a, as something we teach people. So that, yeah, it's, it's a much more positive, constructive forward future thing than, than thinking about feed back, which is always feels a little bit conflicting and a little, it kind of, you know, you got something wrong, but also I think, you know, sometimes people just don't necessarily know perhaps the right questions to ask mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, if somebody comes back from a training program or, you know, they're back from a particular module, you know, what are the right questions to ask? So this is one of the things we want to do in, in our platform. We're building where we just prompt managers, you know, when is the, a really good time to ask that question? So what are the kind of critical moments, but also, you know, just here's, here's some simple questions to ask it's it's not complicated, and that's not to say that managers don't know, but often, you know, they're, they're so squashed with other things they have to do. They're, they're, you know, they're very, very busy people that if they're just given those useful prompts at the right time, we really think that's gonna support the, the learning transfer into, into the workplace from that organizational and social level.
Speaker 2:Definitely. I fully agree really, really interesting, uh, interesting idea. I see exactly the same here. So, uh, as long as we, so, uh, uh, the support from supervisors is one of those, uh, uh, 12 levers. And as, as, as you said, we know from research that if they support it, it's much easier for participants of course, to apply what they have learned. And we know from research that already 15 minutes discussion between supervisors and participants actually make a, a significant difference. That's, that's amazing. But we also learned as, as, as you said, as long as we kind of force supervisors or try to kind of, uh, uh, really put pressure on them, we get a lot of resistance because some how, um, supervisors sometimes still have this idea that, uh, people development is, uh, work of the personal development, uh, uh, department. So kind of, they send them to, to training and get them back in a, in a repaired way and, and they can immediately work. So it's not, it's not that they have realized they are very, very important role in making this whole process work. And I, I think there are, there are two things. So on the one hand, we need to make sure that they know how important they are. They are bips in terms of, of, of making learning work. Uh, and the other thing is to make it really easy for them to be, uh, transfer supporters like the, like the tool you said, or for example, I, I love, uh, uh, yeah, we, we have, we have experimented with several tools, like, uh, like the self check we, we have discussed. So, so sending out a, uh, little self check, two supervisors before the training starts saying, okay, you're, uh, a participant will soon be joining us for one of our programs. Please use the self check attached to find out whether you are already getting the most out of the train program. And then they just do a little self check. Okay. I've talked with my participant. I have, uh, uh, with my employee about what I'm expecting there, or we have scheduled, uh, that he, or she's going present is key insights after the training in our show fix or stuff like that. And then they just, uh, they just tick their, their answers and, uh, completely without making it publicly so completely anonymous. They get a, they get a, um, they get a kind of, um, yeah, little text, which says, okay, you are a role model in terms of making training work, or you are kind of wasting, uh, time and money of your<laugh> employee of your company and your employee. And that, that is much more of, okay, we are not forcing you to do the work of the personal development. It's just that you are an important role, and this is how you can do it with these little easy steps and ideas. This is really something where we have learned, this is how we can get the supervisors on board, which is by the way, one of the, yeah. Hardest for many of our participants of, of our L and D professionals who say, okay, how, how can I bring the supervisors on board? I've tried it for years, but it doesn't work. And I think the secret here is little easy helping tools. Like the one you stated, or the self check or yeah. Hundreds of others.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, I think you're so right there, it's, it's just simple things that, that often make the biggest difference. I I've read the, um, the C checkbook manifesto recently, and I dunno if you've read it in, it's a, it's a really great book in terms of helping people understand how, how vital those simple checklists can be to, to saving lives, but certainly to, to making training, um, yeah. You know, delivering that return on investment that we're looking for, saving time, money, effort, you know, there's nothing more disappointing than going on a training course, and then not having the opportunity to, to implement something afterwards.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Or your, your peers saying, okay, you have been to a training program. Nice. But we are doing things differently. So yeah, you will get normal in maybe one or two days. Again,<laugh>, this is just depressing. And I think we, as, as, as a training designer, as a learning, learning journey designer, who, who is really kind of, uh, sharing this vision of not only, uh, uh, yeah, keeping busy, but really creating an impact for them, we need to focus on, uh, these, on these levers, on these factors as well. So what about the social surrounding, what about the organization? What about, do they have the possibility the opportunity to apply what they've learned? So all that stuff. Yeah. It's kind of easy to oversee it because we have done training for years and decades in a certain way. So just remember those okay. Two days in the seminar room,<laugh>, that's how we normally do it, but I think, uh, now really Corona has changed, uh, the way we learn in a, in a really fundamental way. And it's a big chance for now are rethinking this whole thing and also, uh, putting, uh, transfer ideas into tools, into learner journeys.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a really interesting thought there that has provoked another question for me en, which is, you know, there's a, there's a lot of conversation at the moment about, you know, learning in the flow of work, um, you know, unconscious learning, informal learning and, and you know, what we've been talking about so far, I guess, is the more formal element, the, the training course mm-hmm<affirmative>, uh, which I think still has a place for, for many things. What are your thoughts around you transfer levers in a, in a more informal way?
Speaker 2:Uh, I think we, we definitely should<laugh> should start to not only designing this formal learning, but also informal learning as it is such a huge part to, uh, uh, to successful learning. So I think we really need to understand, but not only understand and not only talk about, talk about it, but to really put into action, those effective learning thoughts also for informal stuff at the moment we are, we are re we are doing research on this, uh, idea on this issue of socially shared regulations. So what we all know is that we can push ourselves far more if we do things together, uh, think back to our old seminar rooms, it's really, really hard to kind of say, no, I'm not doing the task that is boring. And I, I would love to buy on Amazon while you are doing that task. That that just doesn't happen.<laugh>. But if we are in a asynchronous learning situation, or even in, in a virtual learning situation, it's, it's much easier. There, there is, there, there are no norms. There is no kind of this positive social, social pressure, this noting of, okay, now go through that task. And this is such an such an interesting issue for me. Okay. How can we make that work when, when we don't have this kind of, uh, uh, pressure that we can put on them, for example, this pressure of being together in a room where you can kind of natural force people, much easier compared to yeah. Lose communities or, um, in an, in formal way of learning. I think this is a really, really big thing, and we need to focus on that much more otherwise yeah. That learning doesn't happen that easily as it could happen. So
Speaker 1:It's creating that stronger social learning.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I think the other, from, from my point of view, I think the other point is supporting learners to understand a learning process and helping them also to understand that, you know, these levers they can actually use for themselves in an informal situation. So, you know, if you're, if you're learning informally, I think there's something about being aware that you are learning in the first place, which is very important, but then also realizing that, you know, the things you say to yourself, the, the tasks you set yourself and, and actually kind of frame it as I'm about to learn something. So actually I need to think about, well, how am I going to transfer that into the workplace? And, and perhaps it's kind of, it's bringing a sort of, um, perhaps what is already an unconscious, um, ability bringing it into consciousness so you can kind of tweak with it, play with it and make it a little bit more, um, there's something about making it more concrete. I think that making it more obvious that then makes it easier to apply it consciously. And then eventually it'll slip back into that kind of unconscious skilled behavior. But I think, I think something about teaching people, you know, how they learn and, and giving them, you know, these supporting tools.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. And I think a really important part of this is here to unlearn the way we kind of learn that learning happens in our formal education, because somehow we all think, or a lot of us think that, uh, learning is sitting somewhere consuming knowledge still. Although we have discussed about that for years and still I find trainings where there is a facilitator who kind of shares knowledge, uh, uh, by yeah, by, by sharing a lot of PowerPoint slide. And I think that's, that's learning and participants think that is learning as well. And I think we really have to unlearn this,<laugh> this, this thing that we have done for such a long time, and think back how we learned when we were little, little, little trials where we really learned huge stuff and learn from that way of learning
Speaker 1:It. I, I was quite surpris at a conference this weekend, uh, last week, rather to, to hear some people say that when we do things differently, sometimes our people don't like that. They say, no, we just want to sit here and listen. And actually I I've never had that experience. And I think there's something about the way you set training up the way you set people up to, to succeed that I have never had that experience, but there were quite a few people saying, yeah, but you know, people, people just want to come and listen and, and then they, you know, they don't want to have to, to do something. And that really surprised me, but, you know, clearly that is a, a kind of a myth that needs busting. It's a, something that needs changing that we can't just learn us by passively absorbing. We aren't, we aren't learning sponges.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. But, uh, uh, in interest that you come up with it because I, myself sometimes feel, okay, come on, share something interesting with me, just, I just want to be passive. And when I reflect on that, it just tells me that I'm not really learning.
Speaker 1:So, um, you know, one of the things that I'm, I'm really interested is whether, whether any of these levers people find more difficult to apply. Do you think that any of them are more difficult? You said they're easy. And, and I agree, but are there any that people find a little bit more difficult?
Speaker 2:Uh, I would say, uh, typically these are organizationally that are kind of hard for them. So, uh, bringing supervisors on board is a big thing.<laugh>, uh, because a lot of people are kind of depressed here because they have tried it for several years and it hasn't worked. So it's kind of, ah, we kind, we cannot do it. And I love to see the, uh, to see after our, uh, uh, transfer design certification program that it's kind of, yeah, it is possible. Wow. Now I finally have those little tools with, with which they work. So maybe that's one of the most difficult ones, uh, together with the transfer expect in the organization, which is the question, is the company really expecting, transfer really expecting people to apply what they have learned or do we do training more as a, as a kind of, okay. We have done something, so we, yeah, we have a problem. So we have done three. We are not, we check the box. Exactly.<laugh> exactly. So that's maybe one of the harder, harder one as well, but there again are really, really easy to tools of how to address them. And maybe if you are, if you are starting in this whole transfer, uh, transfer area, the one, uh, have already shared that's that's one of the most favorite ones for newcomers is, uh, transfer planning. So make them plan their very next steps, because that is really easy, really easy, and it has a huge impact
Speaker 1:Already. And I think particularly when you tie that in with the social, so that you commit in public to what your next step is, and then there's somebody to kind of hold you to, um, to account for that. I think that's a really important part of that one. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are there any other pitfalls that people need to avoid?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes, definitely a pitfall that, um,<laugh> that I used to do when I started with this whole transfer thing. So maybe my biggest mistake, and I'm so grateful for it because it was the, uh, biggest learning as well was that I wanted too much at the very beginning. So there are 12 levers. And as you said, it's only 12, but there are 12. So it's still a lot. And at the very beginning, when I, when I, uh, um, have had done all these three, I, I had the idea that we have to address all 12 levers. So in the com uh, in the companies, I set up huge transfer projects where we kind of shared, okay, now we are putting everything to transfer effective and transfer is, is a new, really important word here. And we try to address all 12 levers for a are several programs. And yeah, it failed<laugh><laugh>, uh, it failed because yeah, we don't like those huge change projects. And we don't like to, that everything gets so E uh, gets so, gets so difficult and we have to do so much. And so I wanted much, and I wanted too much from supervisors from, uh, ND professionals from participants. So maybe that's, that's the pitfall doing it in a huge project way. That's, uh, something I can really recommend to avoid.<laugh> what we, what we normally suggest here is to either do, uh, uh, do what we call a deep approach. So take one training program that is kind of a, kind of the CEO baby, as we like to call it. So a program, which is really important for, for one of the CEOs where he, or she's really interested, uh, that this program creates a difference. And then, uh, try to set, set it up in a transfer effective way by focusing on 12 levers. And what normally happens afterwards is that the CEO says, wow, can you do the, I, I don't understand what you have done, but can you do the same with the other program as well? And then you, as L professional can say, okay, I, I can do that. Wonderful. You get asked for it. And that's, that's, that's just awesome. Yeah. That's kinda the deep approach. And then there is the broad approach as well, which is choose one really, really easy tools, like for example, uh, the trends for are planning. So create a kind of, uh, a kind of little folder or a kind of task, which every trainer uses at the end of every training session and do it for all training in your company, start with a really, really easy tool and then, uh, say, wow, that worked wonderful. Why not try another tool? And so for tool, you get more, uh, more of these, uh, levers covered without kind of setting up a huge transfer project that frightens everyone.<laugh>,
Speaker 1:That's really useful advice. I think, I think everybody can, uh, can learn from that. Thank you. Um, what are your sort of latest, cause I know you keep on with your research, don't you, what, what are your of latest insights or, or the things that are perhaps exciting you most at the moment mm-hmm<affirmative>
Speaker 2:So beside this whole thing about, uh, socially shared regulations about this creating a sense of community, that's really something that, that, yeah, that's kind of fascinates me. How can we do that in, uh, in, uh, a synchron way or in a, in, in kind of a learning platform, but I know that you are, that you have a lot of ideas here because you are building this, this transfer platform at the moment. What, what, what are your, your, uh, um, modules, your, your, your ideas here, because I think you are, so,
Speaker 1:I mean, we are, we're trying to do it from kind of numerous, um, levels. So we're trying to get support from, you know, subject matter experts are creating programs or supporting learning, you know, how can we help them? Uh, yeah. How can we help them with the platform to actually be part of a, a learning journey effectively? Yeah. And that could be anything, it could be, you know, setting up small conversations. It could be them, them actually actively mentoring individuals. It might be mentoring, small groups, um, like you, we're, we're very passionate about getting the managers involved. And that's the piece where we really want to, to support the managers to, to have those, you know, sort of simple initiatives in place at the right time. They're kinda choosing the right time. So they're not overwhelmed. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and then they have those just really simple checklists to, to support the understanding, being that, you know, if you use a checklist, a number of times after a while that it comes a habit, so you don't necessarily need to continue using the checklist. So the checklist manifester would say you do, but that, you know, that you kind of introduce new behaviors for people mm-hmm<affirmative>. And then again, you know, how can the, the, the learner support each other, you know, peer support. So having, you know, useful, not forums where nobody ever goes and visits, but actually really useful conversation pieces, talking to people in the places they're already having those conversations, those work-based conversations, so that they're supporting each other through the program and, and kind of promoting that kind of peer peer support. Because I think one of the things with peers is they're usually as to similar level to you. So they're experiencing similar challenges, similar experiences, and you can talk about it at the same level. Um, the disadvantage, if you're working with somebody who's already, you know, 20 steps ahead is they, they move you along too fast when you're not necessarily quite ready. So that peer support I think is, is hugely important. And I think, you know, peer reviewing output from, from the actions you take is a really valuable way to do it. You know, it could be that you, you go and watch somebody in a meeting and then give them some feed forward, or it might be that you, you know, they've, they've produced a report as a result of something and that you can actually peer review that, and that allows both parties to learn from each other.
Speaker 2:Definitely. I think that will make the, the huge next difference between, uh, what is a, what is a well designed learning platform and what is just a, uh, yeah, kind, kind of a content library. These are two completely different things. And I think everyone who, who thinks about, uh, our working with the learning platform needs to ask themself. Okay. Uh, does it really have this idea of transformed mind? Does it have the leave us in place? Does it use, this is another thing we love to, uh, um, we'd love to do research on at the moment. Does it use all these, uh, all the stuff we know from the behavioral sciences? So does it include the us in a profitable way? So not only, uh, kind of, uh, getting P uh, make, making people avoid you, uh, avoid falling into these, uh, uh, biases, but making use of it. This is such a such an important thing. And I think this will make the difference of a successful learning platform compared with the, with the, yeah, just the content library as we have, as we have hundreds and thousands of it,<laugh>,
Speaker 1:There's no shortage of, of some great content, but there, there is currently no shortage of content. There's, there's plenty of that. And how do we, how do we make best use of that knowledge, which is definitely, you know, needed for learning, but actually, how do we then support people to, to do something with that knowledge?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 1:In, I think we've, we've come to the end of our, our podcast. It's been a delight as always to talk to you. I think, uh, you know, we have that shared joy of, of making sure that people do, you know, enjoy learning as well as actually change behaviors, habits, attitudes. Is there anything you want to sort of add as a final piece?
Speaker 2:I, I would love to see many, many more L and D professionals out there who, uh, shared this vision, as you said, this vision and this passion for creating really, really effective learning and there, and it is not rocket science. It is definitely possible. And I invite everyone to kind of share this, uh, this movement and, and this vision, because it just makes our work feel more, more, you useful, more, more meaningful.
Speaker 1:So, so there's a real advantage for us as L and D people to feel like we, you know, we really have a real purpose, and I know there are people, you know, questioning their, their purpose. So I think it does give us real purpose, cuz we are, we are creating, we're creating change in, it was as always a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being part of our podcast. It's D labs and I look forward to continuing to work with
Speaker 2:You. Thank you so much. Good luck. See you soon.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Please share it with your friends and colleagues and visit our website, Stella labs.eu, to learn more about what we do and how we do it tune into the next episode.